To expect dd's Brownie leaders to take contact numbers on a trip to a theme park?

[aleC4]

Dd went on a trip today with her Brownies to Drayton Manor. It was a big Guiding thing with 10,000 Rainbows, Brownies and Guides.
Obviously the weather was awful and she got absolutely soaked, she got through two pairs of trousers both of which feel like she has laid in a puddle. I know they can't do anything about the rain and I wouldn't dream of complaining to them about the weather.
However - I was a little concerned when I left her that there only appeared to be young girls in charge and no Brown Owl. However they are official Brownie leaders and there seemed enough of them. Apparently Brown Owl was ill and when they got there no-one had the tickets. They had to wait in the pouring rain while another leader from another pack had to come back from the park to get them in.
She has been on 3 rides all day which seemed strange to me as we have been on really, really busy days and always got plenty done. She said 3 of the leaders don't like the other one (in my opinion she shouldn't even know this!) and the one they don't like kept going off with children. Because of this they had to walk round for ages looking for this other leader because she wouldn't answer her phone.
They had to eat their packed lunch outside which although maybe not their fault seems ridiculous.
Sorry I am going on, now for the bit I am really cross about. They arrived back early, I'm not sure how early because I only have the word of a 7 year old, but in her words it was 'ages'. None of the other Guides, Brownies or Rainbows were there, they had already been picked up and I was 10 minutes early. It was raining and the girls looked freezing.
I walked up to the group and gave dd a cuddle (she was soaked!) and started walking away with her. I realised that none of the leders had even noticed she had gone as they were chatting to each other. I went back and told them I was taking her.
I asked dd if they were early as we were driving away. She said yes we got back really early and we had to wait. I asked where everyone else was and she said their leaders had rung their parents to come early. I asked her why we hadn't been rung and she said the leaders had not got any of their contact numbers!!!
I couldn't believe it. We had to provide all the details with the permission slip. They had been to a theme park over an hour away, all day, in the pouring rain with no-one but teenagers in charge and they had taken no-one's contact numbers. Please tell me we are NBU to be spitting feathers. Dh is absolutely fuming an ready to go in all guns blazing next week when she goes to Brownies. Obviously we will have to check the details but this is not right is it?

The op is basing that on the fact that the adults were talking to each other, but if she really was the last one to collect and there was no one else around then how could they miss her? They may not have made a point of acknowledging her which is a little rude I'll admit, but unless one of them actually said we didnt see you there the chances are they had noticed. I cant actually envisage any senario where a group of leaders are stood around in the cold with the last child chatting and dont notice someone coming over to the child, if only because theyd want to get home themselves and dry off. They were probably just a little stunned at a parent taking their child off without bothering to acknowledge them herself after theyd looked after her child all day. Its perfectly possible to be talking to other adults and notice whats going on around, honestly, in the same way as its possible for parents to chat by the school gates and still notice their child coming towards them.

agree with Nibbled - sounds a cack trip to me.

I wasn't the last one. I was there 10 minutes early and there were around 5 or 6 Brownies still left.
Eustacia most school trips are back before the end of the school day so children are dismissed as usual from the classroom directly to a parent/carer. Schools have extremely tight safeguarding protocols to follow. I once had a trip that was a little late back due to an accident on the motorway. When we got back the parents were all waiting in the car park where the bus drops off. The Headteacher asked all the parents to go to the outside classroom door so we could take the children inside, through the school. This was to ensure that no-one went home without us knowing. This should be common practise in all schools I'm sure.
When dd is at Brownies the Leader stands at the door and sees each one out to a parent. On the rare occasions I have picked her up I have heard some moan about having to wait in a queue but to me it is just common sense. If you want to be first in the queue, get there early!

As (another) Brownie Leader, I think you're getting a bit of an unfair pasting from some. The comments about it being better for you to pull your DD out are particularly uncalled for, and very un-Guiding

The Home Contact is an established Girlguiding policy, but we've always had this as an additional safety measure. We would always take emergency details with us as well.

Young Leaders (turquoise uniform) are girls under the age 18. They cannot count as adults in the ratios, which should be 1 adult:8 Brownies outside the normal meeting place. So for 16 girls there should have been at least two Adult Leaders (navy uniform) aged 18 or over. If you don't think these ratios were met then you should certainly query this.

If they went with other groups it sounds like this may have been a District or Division trip? It may have been that other groups were told a different time, as others have said. Unfortunate but sometimes these things do happen.

We also wouldn't tick girls off as they were collected, but would acknowledge the parents and make sure we saw each girl leave.

I'm not sure if we'd have phoned if we were due back early - it would depend on how early it was looking and how long it was looking like we would be waiting.

As a Leader and volunteer, I certainly consider myself accountable to GG and to parents, I'm not some Saint beyond reproach. Policies are as much about protecting leaders as girls.

I'm sorry your DD is feeling a bit wibbly about future trips - hopefully by the time the next one comes round she'll be excited for it! I'm actually quite glad we didn't go yesterday, we've done Drayton Manor before as a group and its always far more painful than going as friends/family and have always found them slightly disappointing! The faffing, the queuing, the crowds, te endless trips to the toilet. Painful.

The bit I don't understand is why the dad who chanced upon the brownies while collecting another child didn't let the other parents know.

I only have the mobile numbers of three parents but if I was that parent I would have contacted the parents that I know (and would offer to bring some of them home as I was there)

And the op is annoyed with the leaders? I would be pissed off with that dad - who then allowed other girls to stand in the rain for 30 mins.

i keep coming back to this thread and feel really sorry for the brownie leaders. all day in the rain (not even a free ticket?!) and you dont even acknowledge their presence when you pick your child up, then are 'spitting feathers'

Sanfairyanne I went to the group and cuddled dd. She started to pull me away towards the car but no-one noticed her go as they were talking. I realised they hadn't noticed and went back to say I'd got her and thank them. They didn't acknowledge my presence until I went up to them.

See, I'm disappointed that any parent would have got as far away from the pick up point (even if that were a few steps) that they had to "go back to say we'd got her"...... surely when you thanked them for giving up another long day to give your dd a day out, they would have noticed you then ?

If your daughter was just pulling you away, you really can't have got far! It was hardly leaving without the leaders noticing. And if they were having a bit of a chat after a wet day out, fair enough. You didn't leave without them noticing your daughter was no longer there, which is what you are suggesting.
So I really think this is likely to be an over-reaction OP. You don't know that they didn't have contact numbers and you didn't take your daughter away without them knowing.
I think you were annoyed to find your daughter wet and perhaps a bit miserable, and the last one there and have somehow developed this further in your mind to the leaders being underage, not following protocol about telephone numbers and letting children leave without realising they were leaving.

No doubt, under usual circumstances you would be sending a Thankyou email or card and thanking the leaders individually for giving up their day. I don't suppose they enjoyed the queues or rain either, or being back earlier than planned.

Still, if on reflection you are sure there weren't any adults there, are sure they had no contact numbers and were letting children properly leave without being aware they had gone, you certainly should raise it with the leaders.
Or do you think that on reflection, you might decide that seeing your daughter being the last to be collected (and someone has to be last) and a bit wet and miserable, might have coloured your thinking about it all, you might send that Thankyou email after all?

it's a genuine question - did the fact she was last and a bit wet, and talked of big queues and lunch outdoors lead you to see the whole thing in a more negative light than it really took place in??

I'll say again, she was not the last one there. There were still 5 or 6 Brownies left when we left. They were all standing together. I saw dd. She was on the end of the line, furthest away from the Leaders. She came to me, cuddled me and walked, holding my hand, towards the car. I looked up to see who was with her so I could thank them as I stated earlier and they were chatting. They hadn't seen me at all or seen dd leaving the line. I then told them I was taking her and thanked them. I could easily have walked away and driven off with her.

As a cub leader, I do think you are being a bit over critical , and jumping to conclusions. I'd find it hard to believe that the leaders were not over 18, or that they has no access to contact numbers. You are going purely on the information provided by your 7 year old. And I certainly don't think the leaders were under any obligation to call you to let you know they would be back early. It's hard enough keeping an eye on 16 young children, without having to fiddle about calling 16 sets of parents, at least half of which won't answer the phone!

That said, I think it's fair enough for you to enquire whether the correct procedures were followed. However, I think you should be under the assumption that procedures were followed, until you are told otherwise by a leader, not by your child.

I think you may be allowing the poor weather, and busy theme park to cloud your judgement of management of the day .

I'm still not really buying this thing about them not being aware of her, or there being an issue with children leaving unnoticed.
Children leaving is a two-way thing in terms of communication, especially at this age (we are not talking about reception age children) - parents need to make leaders aware that they have arrived and are taking the children, and leaders keep an eye on the children, but at this age are not expecting them to just wander off. If the leaders don't know you, it is even more incumbent on you to make your presence clear, especially in a busy public place. The children also know and are repeatedly told,that they must not leave without an adult being told. (So there is a recognition that it is possible for a child to go home with a parent and an adult not to realise.....children, parents and leaders all play a role in making sure this doesn't happen)
Of course leaders need to be responsible. As children get older (and Brownies tend to be of KS2 age) the expectations of levels of supervision required change. It is why Brownies do activities and have different ratios to smaller children. So yes leaders need to be aware and are responsible...but children and parents are responsible too.

I was not there. You were there. many people have posted here and made many suggestions about what might have happened. OP, you continue to remain critical of the leaders and the suggestions many Guiding leaders have made about adult leaders, contact information, leaving information, have been dismissed by you. You clearly think things were amiss. If you feel like this, having taken a step back from your initial thoughts on finding your daughter wet and cold, then you should enquire about your concerns.

I'm sure we'd all be interested to know what they say when you ask....having discussed it all and heard numerous possibilities, it would be really interesting to know what was going on.

ChocolateWombat - do you think it is OK that it appears that none of the Leaders present appear to have been keeping an eye on the Brownies who were awaiting pickup?

I had a similar dilemma about whether to raise an issue over an incident with one of my children with Guides last year, she was very upset about it and I felt it was badly handled by the leader that day, although for excusable reasons (lots of children, no time to sort out problem). In the end though (after composing some complaining letters in my head and moaning to a few people) I decided to chalk it up to experience. My dd still wanted to carry on Guiding and there was no safety issue to it and I decided that it would create more difficulties than it would solve to start making a fuss (I also didn't want a he said/she said situation with my child). She's loving it this year and I'm glad we both just let it go.

I'm not saying that you are in the wrong necessarily about questioning the home contact system, but it does sound like that's what was behind the 'no numbers'. The rest of it is just a live and learn thing- perhaps avoid these type of mass events, they sound pretty miserable for everyone.

I don't think, given the time to set up a text/phone to all parents, this is realistic as it would be in a school (where the admin person puts all the numbers in for you and then sends centralised texts stratified by group). They probably figured that it wouldn't be worth contacting the home contact for a 30 min waiting period- and remember they were waiting too.

As for the fact your child could have been 'taken'- come on, at the end of the day at school, they like to think they give every single child out individually to the designated person but the reality I have seen is children coming out together, pick ups by grandparents/other parents, teacher being talked to by other parent and child being picked up- they keep their eyes peeled but it is not one to one at all by aged 7 (reception is different). The only way you can know that they really didn't see you whatsoever if is you had got in the car and driven off. You didn't- you did a normal thing, said 'thanks', they looked round. Perhaps they should have stood in a rigid line looking out for approaching parents, not speaking in the pouring rain.

You and your husband are clearly angry about the wet soggy child who didn't have a great time and that's a shame. I would give it a few days and see if you still feel angry and also ask your dd if this has put her off Brownies or she would like to carry on- in the end I made the decision to leave our problem with my dd who didn't want me to go in and make a fuss which couldn't be solved except with a time-machine. Your dd may feel the same.

SDT - the thing is, there are different ways of keeping an eye on the girls. As the poster after you said, are you expecting the leaders,of a group of 7-10 year olds to stand silently, staring out into the crowd for a parent. It is perfectly possible to be an adult chatting and still to be aware of what is going on. The OP had been dragged a few paces by her child...she had not taken the child away without being noticed. As I tail before, parents and children too play a role in ensuring everyone knows who is leaving and with whom.
At the end of the day, the OP needs to decide if to follow it up. She needs to think through her concerns and consider if they are serious (and they may be....fair enough) or partly influenced by finding a wet child who had not enjoyed the day much. Waiting another day, to gain some perspective is often a good idea in these situations. If OP is still concerned, she certainly should enquire further. I guess one way to do that, would be to send a thank you email, expressing grateful thanks for the leaders giving up their time on a wet, busy day, followed by a couple of queries, including recognition that children can't and don't always report event accurately. I'm sure the leaders will respond.

If the OP is seriously worried it is better to raise the issue and get an answer than to brood on the matter, feeling resentful, or worse still to go round bad-mouthing the organisation to other people without full information. The OP makes no suggestion she will do that, but many people do, rather than ask for the information which will clarify what actually happened.

Alec4 i thought your dd was there last because you said:

None of the other Guides, Brownies or Rainbows were there, they had already been picked up and I was 10 minutes early. It was raining and the girls looked freezing.

I thought the "girls" in question were the leaders you'd called girls

Woodcrafter here, so obviously we do things differently (I would expect always to have emergency contacts and consent forms, but we don't use a 'home contact' system).

Two things concern me, really. One is the departure situation. No, the leaders don't need to be standing in a line, watching avidly for parents, but I would expect a robust and conscious handover of responsibility. We have every child sign out with their responsible adult. This arose as a response to particular circumstances (outdoors, in the dark etc) where parents had a tendency to just take their child without a word to the leaders. I'm not criticising Brownie/Guide procedures, more the attitude that it was probably ok, that schools aren't that robust either (my daughter's infant school is!) etc. Yes, everyone, including children, has a part to play, but if I'm leading it's my watch and my responsibility.

More than that, however, is the suggestion that the organisation should be beyond question - and one shouldn't speak up for fear of being thought 'one of those mums'. Yes, it's best to get the facts, but anyone should be able to check safeguarding procedures. You are, after all, giving over your child to the care of someone else. Volunteering can be hard and soul-destroying sometimes: I've been flamed by a non-involved parent for something that I felt they were flagrantly in the wrong over - and I was very angry at his arrogance and felt like packing the whole thing in. That said, it was right that there was a route by which this parent could complain about me. (Although he was still an arse... )

Broken, thank you. I certainly feel now, from my experiences here, that the association itself doesn't like being questioned or challenged. I merely wanted to find out and question whether this was normal procedure.
I did not come here for character assassination or to have my abilities as a parent questioned. I have obviously hit on a raw nerve with some.
Thank you to the brownie/guide specialists who have offered constructive advice. It was your inside knowledge I needed in order for me to answer the question in the original thread title.
I will not be returning to this thread now as it is moving in a direction I am not comfortable with.
Again, many thanks to those who were a me to give me some answers without making me out to be the devil incarnate!

IMO, the tick-list system for collecting children is as much about protecting the leaders as it is about safety for the children - and I think it is absolutely right that they should be able to protect themselves.

If, in the situation the OP had described, a child had wandered off, what would have happened when the parent arrived to collect their child? What would the Leaders have said to that parent? It would have been a very worrying, probably panicky situation until the child was found - for the parent and for the Leaders - it would be a horrible situation for everyone concerned.

And what effect would it have on the Leaders? They might get in trouble - the parent might complain - and it could well knock their confidence at leading trips and expeditions - which wouldn't be good for Guiding, would it?

I don't think the organization should be beyond question, but equally, it is volunteer organization for all concerned- children don't have to go, adults don't have to give up their Sat to trudge round in the rain with them! So, if you want to vote with your feet you can.

My guess is that given the Brown Owl wasn't there, the younger staff did things slightly differently, perhaps they didn't feel they should ring the emergency contact numbers just for early pick ups or didn't know they should.

These aren't salaried positions these people are in and yes, that makes a huge difference about what you can say to people before they quit/decide they don't want to do it anymore. Nor are they in a school with the admin organization - if a teacher is ill, cover is not their responsibility- here the opposite is true, they have to decide what to do and cover it themselves.

Many of the OP's gripes, such as eating outside as 'ridiculous' were simply not in their control, as was the sogginess of the child. The only issue is safeguarding and I personally think it is far from clear this was genuinely compromised- her main issue is they were waiting around longer than necessary, not that say an actual accident had occurred and there was a genuine emergency not handled well.

If after all that and after a gentle inquiry about the home contact system, the OP is unhappy at the youth of the leaders, their procedures and inexperience, this is an exceptionally easy way to fix this- take her out of this troop/pack and send her to another one, or not at all.

I certainly feel now, from my experiences here, that the association itself doesn't like being questioned or challenged.

That's rather unfair. Several Brownie and Guide leaders have told you what the stipulated policies and procedures are, so that you can ask informed questions and reach a view on whether things were handled correctly (and, if not, what you might do about it).

OP, I don't think anyone is suggesting you are the Devil incarnate! If you ask the q AIBU, there will be people who say you are, and if you ask the Q you need to be prepared to hear what they say and weigh it, to decide if there is something in it. Why ask the Q if you aren't prepared to hear views that might disagree with you?
Many many people have advised you to follow-up with an enquiry, if on reflection you feel the were genuine safeguarding issues.
If you look on-line you will find the safeguarding policy of the organisation. They are totally open about it and if you enquire about this incident, they will happily give you the information you need. So, if on reflection you are unhappy, ask rather than dwell on it, deciding the organisation has poor procedures, is not open to question etc. if you need more information, then get it.
People on here don't know about your particular situation. They can comment as parents of Brownies, Guiders etc. However only your Guider can answer your questions about the day your daughter had. Don't back off into a corner of resentment until you've got the full information. Tbh, you can't get it here....we don't know. The Guider can give you the info you need.

yes, BackForGood, thats what i thought too.

ks2 children at our school just go home without parent pick up at our school. i would expect a handover in your situation, but can well imagine they see you, and as you dont bother to thank them either, they see no need for a big goodbye

But it's not that the association doesn't like being challenged it's that people want to be clear about what the OP was actually aggrieved about. If they genuinely had no contact system or paid no attention at all to who was collecting the kids all have agreed that this would be a very real issue that needs addressing.

If it is that it was cold and wet and early etc etc then this is not ideal but is a fact of life when going out and about in big groups for the day. It was suspected by many I think that this coloured the OP's judgement.

While there were some sensible responses from the OP (who I assume won't be reading this now) and people were quite harsh in some responses (perhaps mine included but it's hard to be entirely even handed in the face of the other unreasonable grumbles knowing how flipping cold and wet the leaders must have been) it now also seems the OP is being highly unfair to suggest that the whole girl guiding doesn't like to be challenged as if this is some kind of conspiracy! It is not. It is just that people who give up their time to do something they feel strongly about find it hard to read posts which seem to criticise others for things which they know are unfair. This is the raw nerve not criticism per se.

I hope the OP does raise this with the brown owl so that she can clarify what occurred and hopefully have her mind put at rest.

YANBU

I am a Beaver Scout leader so take 6-8 year olds away. I have my rucksack with me every time which has an InTouch sheet with all contact details on.

I also have allergy lists, and we take the kids around with no more than 12 Beavers to two leaders/leaderand parent.

We do NOT go off with kids on our own, that is against our safeguarding policy for both us and the kids. All in all sounds like your Brownie group is a shambles that has had no safeguarding training or planning.