To expect dd's Brownie leaders to take contact numbers on a trip to a theme park?

[aleC4]

Dd went on a trip today with her Brownies to Drayton Manor. It was a big Guiding thing with 10,000 Rainbows, Brownies and Guides.
Obviously the weather was awful and she got absolutely soaked, she got through two pairs of trousers both of which feel like she has laid in a puddle. I know they can't do anything about the rain and I wouldn't dream of complaining to them about the weather.
However - I was a little concerned when I left her that there only appeared to be young girls in charge and no Brown Owl. However they are official Brownie leaders and there seemed enough of them. Apparently Brown Owl was ill and when they got there no-one had the tickets. They had to wait in the pouring rain while another leader from another pack had to come back from the park to get them in.
She has been on 3 rides all day which seemed strange to me as we have been on really, really busy days and always got plenty done. She said 3 of the leaders don't like the other one (in my opinion she shouldn't even know this!) and the one they don't like kept going off with children. Because of this they had to walk round for ages looking for this other leader because she wouldn't answer her phone.
They had to eat their packed lunch outside which although maybe not their fault seems ridiculous.
Sorry I am going on, now for the bit I am really cross about. They arrived back early, I'm not sure how early because I only have the word of a 7 year old, but in her words it was 'ages'. None of the other Guides, Brownies or Rainbows were there, they had already been picked up and I was 10 minutes early. It was raining and the girls looked freezing.
I walked up to the group and gave dd a cuddle (she was soaked!) and started walking away with her. I realised that none of the leders had even noticed she had gone as they were chatting to each other. I went back and told them I was taking her.
I asked dd if they were early as we were driving away. She said yes we got back really early and we had to wait. I asked where everyone else was and she said their leaders had rung their parents to come early. I asked her why we hadn't been rung and she said the leaders had not got any of their contact numbers!!!
I couldn't believe it. We had to provide all the details with the permission slip. They had been to a theme park over an hour away, all day, in the pouring rain with no-one but teenagers in charge and they had taken no-one's contact numbers. Please tell me we are NBU to be spitting feathers. Dh is absolutely fuming an ready to go in all guns blazing next week when she goes to Brownies. Obviously we will have to check the details but this is not right is it?

Volunteers or not it is still bad, and potentially dangerous practice.

I am a youth leader with another organisation and for any trip we have to take the consent forms and medical forms for all young people in our care with us. We also have a home contact with all the numbers.

I would talk to the brown owl as soon as you can and if not satisfied with the response report it further

Another Brown Owl here.

I would always take the consent forms with me (plus a spreadsheet with summary information) and we have the home contact arrangement, too.

I don't really understand your comment about the youthfulness of the leaders in charge. Did you think they were too young to be qualified leaders? There should have been at least one qualified leader with the group, and then other leaders/volunteers to maintain the adult/child ratios that Girlguiding specifies.

By all means ask your Brown Owl about the things that bother you, but (as many others have said) don't go in all guns blazing.

Im not sure I agree about the safeguarding without more information from those involved. This could actually be a case of they forgot to ring you rather than not having your number and in which case as they stayed with your dd until you arrived, and very likely clocked you taking her without necessarily acknowledging it, then thats not really a major deal. However if they did go without your number, yes thats bad. However if a group is so short of adult leaders that they only sent some young leaders with them, so potentially 16-18 years olds then no they are not trained to deal with this things and are far too young really for the responsibility. I appreciate you say your dh does cubs so you do your bit, but if the group seriously only has one adult leader and no parent willing to step up and help then its hardly going to operate as efficiently as a school with paid staff, some of which are there to do the admin.

MaudantWit I don't know enough about Brownies and how it works to know whether Leaders have to have a qualification or not. If they are required to have a qualification then great, I guess they have it. My concern was really that they seemed very young to be in charge. As I didn't know they had to have a qualification I was just worried that they perhaps weren't aware of the procedures they should be following. If they have a qualification and have received training, then their regard for safety is surely even more worrying.
Dd loves the leaders and loves her Brownies so I have no concerns about the group at all while they are in the Hall every week but to me this was a bigger event, with more potential for things to go wrong, and therefore should have been managed a lot more carefully.
Dd went on many trips to similar places with the Rainbows and always had a fabulous time. We were also rung from one such day to say dd had banged her head. They told us she was absolutely fine but they were following procedure to ring and let us know.

I would assume that in an emergency they would ring Brown owl for that child's contact details.I say a big well done to the young people in charge for soldiering on in the face of so much adversity.
I wouldn't expect them to ring 24 sets of parents if they were early.

There were 16 girls. I don't think it is unreasonable to send a quick text to 16 parents? If it had been a beautiful warm dry evening then perhaps not but it was cold and absolutely pouring. I'm sure the Leaders wanted to get home as much as the girls!
Many of us know each other and have each other's numbers so we could easily have set up a chain to text each other. Potentially they could probably have got away with only texting about 4/5 parents.

Alec I am a brown owl and ex district commissioner. for the "young girls" to have been left in charge they must have been at least one that was over 18 and have Completed the leadership award. this includes emergency first aid.

as I said earlier speak to the brown owl and or the district commissioner, chances are they were under instructions to contact brown owl in the avent of an emergency and she had all the contact details. this is quite common as it allows the leaders on the trip to focus on the kids in an emergency rather than having to try and deal with potentially scared and upset kids whilst trying to contact 30 plus parents.

just bare in mind that had these younger leaders not stepped up then your dd would not have been able to go on the trip at all. also ime brownies - especially the youngest ones - believe anything longer than 5 minutes is ages as their perception of time is massively skewed.

To be a leader or assistant leader, Girlguiding volunteers have to obtain the leadership qualification (LQ). So, if policies and procedures have been complied with, then at least one of the people there today should have the LQ (I have just tried but failed to find the policy statement that says this, but I am sure this was dinned into me years ago). You might therefore want to ask who the people in charge today were - were they leaders or assistant leaders who hold the LQ or were they actually young leaders (and therefore too young to hold the LQ)?

It may be that your Brown Owl fell ill at the last minute, couldn't arrange a stand-in and couldn't get the consent forms to the other leaders/volunteers. That isn't for a moment to condone not complying with agreed policies and procedures, but I have been in the situation where I have been texting friends late on the evening before a trip because if one of them couldn't come and help I would have to tell disappointed Brownies that their trip wasn't happening.

Yet another Brown Owl here.

Consent forms should have been taken with them and there should have been enough over-18's to stay within ratios (1:8). But they do only have to be 18 - there are no rules to say one of them must be an "older woman".

However, although I'd have them with me, I doubt I'd bother to call the emergency contact numbers just to let them know we were going to be home a little early, especially as it uses my personal call allowance up. For the same reason I dislike sending texts. And they could not have got away with only texting about 4/5 parents since they wouldn't then know which other parents had been contacted.

I speak as a Guider. Yes we are volunteers but there are standards of practice and behaviour that should be followed. If it is true that they had no contact details or forms then this is a serious breach of protocol. If they had serious issues with each other and this caused difficulty between them that impacted the girls then they need to be pulled up on it.

Yes, we are volunteers, yes we give up our time for free (actually usually at cost to us) but we are put in a position of trust with other people's DC. There may be good reasons for today. But worth finding out.

And yes, to add. I doubt I would text or ring parents to tell them that we were going to be slightly early or late back. If I am supervising a group of Brownies on public transport, then I want to be supervising them not faffing on my phone. If we were going to be significantly early or late, then I might ask the home contact to ring or text the parents.

Thank you Pilgit. Your post says everything I hoped to hear. Of course I am grateful that the Young Leaders gave up their time to take dd on this trip. I understand the huge commitment these people take on with no pay. However, as you say, being unpaid is not an excuse for putting children at potential risk.

Yes, that's why I have been suggesting that you should ascertain whether policies have been followed and take it from there.

My first thought us why you didn't provide your dd with waterproofs to be honest. Regarding eating their packed lunch outside, you'll find that in these sort of places there often isn't anywhere inside that people are allowed to eat packed lunch. It's a shame your dd only got to go on 3 rides however I suspect it was pretty busy. The young people helping you saw should have been 18 or over. Any younger than this they don't count towards ratio number (1:8). Some leaders aren't aware of this, although they really should be.
They should have had your contact details and you have every right to be concerned and cross about this. Even with brown owl being off sick, such details should have been passed onto the other volunteers.
However they are human, mistakes are sometimes made and learnt from. Do remember that they gave all given up a day of their weekend to provide your dd with a day out. I very much doubt they enjoyed being in the rain all day, queuing for ages and eating their lunch outside either. Have you thought about volunteering yourself? It doesn't even have to be every week, in scouting at least, you get 'occasional parent helpers' who volunteer no more than once a month. They are often essential if the pack wants to go out exploring / doing more adventurous activities.

I'm sorry your DD was wet through, but I would check how early they got back. Even 5 mins waiting in the rain is likely to seem ages to a 7yr old. It could be that the other units who had gone had given an earlier pick up time to their parents.

I'm a guide leader. I took over a unit whose leaders had left, after gaining my leadership qualification in a different unit, at the age of 23. Unfortunately I have always looked much younger and in the early stages was confused for a guide on several trips much to my embarrassment (particularly as I'm a secondary teacher as well!), so the leaders who took the girls could be older than you're thinking. They would have had at least one 18+ woman with them.

Were you given a home contact number? For a trip like this, one would be required so that if there was a problem on the trip, or with a parent at home, it could be filtered through the home contact who should have all details and be removed from the situation, so the others can concentrate on the girls.

I'm not saying that there is definitely no reason to be a little put out, just that it is likely to not be as bad as you're worried about.

I'm a teacher and a Guide leader. I always take numbers for Guides as I would do at school. For older girls I take their numbers too. It is possible that due to the last minute illness, numbers weren't passed on except for the home contact number. Therefore the leaders may have been able to make quick contact in case of emergency as they would just call home contact. I never contact if we are back early (only if late), as some parents won't be able to just drop everything so I keep them all.
ps - I have a fully qualified leader who is still at school (year 13).

Duchess there was a debate amongst Guiders recently as to whether parents should be given the home contact number or whether it was fine simply for the home contact to have the parents numbers. Most people seem to opt for the latter although I'd rather give the parents the number.

I must have missed that, Permanently. Where was it discussed? I imagine parents would be more worried without being able to contact anyone during a trip, or would end up calling/texting those leading it instead.

It was on one of the Facebook groups.

Our parents have my phone number (of course) but I also give them the home contact number and encourage them to call the home contact for routine stuff (such as reminders of drop off/pick up arrangements). I understand they may need to ring me if something urgent crops up but (again) if I'm supervising a group of girls I don't want to be interrupted by non-urgent stuff.

My housemate was there. She is a brownie leader. They only went on three rides too, and this was due to the sheer number of people there. She was also soaked to her underwear.

My parents all have my mobile number, so even if they can't get hold of the emergency contact they can get hold of me.

We went to Chessington instead, who were doing a similar deal. We went on a Sunday and it was lovely and quiet. About 20 mins for most rides. Its a real shame Drayton Manor didn't think it through.

Ex Brown Owl and current guide leader here. I wasn't at the Mega day at Drayton manor today, but have heard from friends who were. The weather was awful, the place was packed and the queues long, so the fact that your daughter got wet, and had to queue is not surprising, my friends all report exactly the same! Tbh, waterproof trousers and a really good waterproof coat are essential, imho.

Some facts: guiding rules for trips state that you should stick to the correct ratio of adults to children (1+8) and that you should have consent/health forms with contact details for eAch child. Also a home contact, who also has all the details and can contact parents in the event of an emergency, so that the leaders are free to deal with the emergency instead of making phone calls.
Adult leaders are all over 18, you can have "young leaders" age 16-18, but they do not count in the adult child ratio. Adult leaders are all crb checked, have basic first aid training and have done girlguiding' s leadership training. I think before you go "in all guns blazing" you need to find out if the you g women you saw were adult leaders (over 18) or 16 _18 year olds. Personally I doubt a couple of 16-18's would have been left in charge, so find out first.
Also, do you know for a fact that they did not have any contact information? It sounds like they managed to get in touch with the other parents.....it would not be the first time a parent has not answered their phone when we have been trying to contact them on a trip bitter experience
If you find that they were sent off with under 18's, with no contact details or home contact, then please do complain to the District Commissioner, as they will have broken every rule in the book!

Hippo she had a waterproof coat and wellies. We were told that they categorically must be in uniform at all times so therefore did not buy her any waterproof trousers. She was allowed to change into her spare trousers at lunchtime - I guess they realised that in reality it was better to be dry and happier than soaked in uniform. I thought what I had provided her with was as much as I could have.
She is obviously in bed now, warm and dry. However, it has put her off going on big Brownie trips again and that is a shame. I know it was partly down to the weather and that can't be helped but she was also very unhappy about the Leaders she was with 'falling out' with another one and saying things about her and consequently traipsing about the park looking for her.