To expect dd's Brownie leaders to take contact numbers on a trip to a theme park?

[aleC4]

Dd went on a trip today with her Brownies to Drayton Manor. It was a big Guiding thing with 10,000 Rainbows, Brownies and Guides.
Obviously the weather was awful and she got absolutely soaked, she got through two pairs of trousers both of which feel like she has laid in a puddle. I know they can't do anything about the rain and I wouldn't dream of complaining to them about the weather.
However - I was a little concerned when I left her that there only appeared to be young girls in charge and no Brown Owl. However they are official Brownie leaders and there seemed enough of them. Apparently Brown Owl was ill and when they got there no-one had the tickets. They had to wait in the pouring rain while another leader from another pack had to come back from the park to get them in.
She has been on 3 rides all day which seemed strange to me as we have been on really, really busy days and always got plenty done. She said 3 of the leaders don't like the other one (in my opinion she shouldn't even know this!) and the one they don't like kept going off with children. Because of this they had to walk round for ages looking for this other leader because she wouldn't answer her phone.
They had to eat their packed lunch outside which although maybe not their fault seems ridiculous.
Sorry I am going on, now for the bit I am really cross about. They arrived back early, I'm not sure how early because I only have the word of a 7 year old, but in her words it was 'ages'. None of the other Guides, Brownies or Rainbows were there, they had already been picked up and I was 10 minutes early. It was raining and the girls looked freezing.
I walked up to the group and gave dd a cuddle (she was soaked!) and started walking away with her. I realised that none of the leders had even noticed she had gone as they were chatting to each other. I went back and told them I was taking her.
I asked dd if they were early as we were driving away. She said yes we got back really early and we had to wait. I asked where everyone else was and she said their leaders had rung their parents to come early. I asked her why we hadn't been rung and she said the leaders had not got any of their contact numbers!!!
I couldn't believe it. We had to provide all the details with the permission slip. They had been to a theme park over an hour away, all day, in the pouring rain with no-one but teenagers in charge and they had taken no-one's contact numbers. Please tell me we are NBU to be spitting feathers. Dh is absolutely fuming an ready to go in all guns blazing next week when she goes to Brownies. Obviously we will have to check the details but this is not right is it?

September I am the least arrogant person you could ever meet. I am certainly not one of those mums. I have no contact with Brownies at all, they don't even know me. My fil drops off as I have staff meeting and dh picks her up as it is a night I have a hobby of my own.
I have already stated that if procedure was being followed I have no further issue with the Leaders at all. If I have to disagree with the procedure then I'll just have to put up with it. Dd will have my number in her bag next time she goes anywhere. I still think it should be with her. I had just never come across this before as when she was in Rainbows they always checked they had the right numbers before every trip. As I stated earlier they used it once to ring me and let me know dd had banged her head.

aleC4

While I am sure more of the time you are not arrogant nor "one of those Mums", your post half an hour ago was.

I agree that your last post is much less arrogant and stroppy. The leaders are following policy.

The most useful phone number to put in your DD bag next time she is on a Brownie (or Guide, or Rainbow) trip would be the mobile phone number of her leader. Often on large scale events we make the girls wear wristbands with the leaders phone number on it.

While I appreciate it always takes some trust to hand your children over to others to look after, you should appreciate that the person best placed to offer care in an emergency when out with Brownies would not be yourself, it would be the leaders who are looking after her. They do know what they are doing.

Put the leaders number on her bag. Emergency happens, then the leader can be phoned (leader would in fact already be with her, but might make you feel better). If the emergency is more serious and requires parents, then leader can phone Home Contact.

Just wanted to say that my dd also went to DM yesterday and had a great time although she was very wet and tired by the time she came home! I got her to say thank you to her leaders before we left as we really do appreciate all their hard work as volunteers

most of the time, not more of the time.

Getting home early is not an emergency, I agree - but surely it would have been better for 18 soaked Brownies to have been picked up as soon as possible, so that their equally soaked - and tired - Leaders could have gone home for a hot shower and a rest, SeptemberBabies?

Might it not have been better for one of the Leaders to ring the home contact and ask them to ring round the parents to say they'd be home early? They could have done this from the coach, and all the parents could have picked their Brownies up when they got back - instead of which they all had to stand around, wet and cold. I don't think the OP is wrong to think this is not the best way things could have been done.

And I think you have missed the part where the OP was about take her child away without any of the Leaders checking her off their list, or noticing that she had gone? If she hadn't realised that no-one had noticed her collecting her child, how would the Leaders have known, for sure, that the child had been collected by her parent, and hadn't just wandered off?

Yes, these young women are volunteers, doing an amazing thing - but surely, if there are lapses in procedure, you, as a District Commissioner, would want those addressed in some way - politely, reasonably and fairly, of course. Everyone is human, we all know this - but if a lapse happens, that could potentially have led to a serious incident, isn't it better that this is flagged up so it can be dealt with correctly, and doesn't happen again - with serious consequences, this time?

Which is worse - a set of young Leaders is reminded that they need to hand over each Brownie at the end of a trip, and check them off on their list, or that they aren't reminded about this, and the next time a Brownie wanders off and something bad happens - they get lost/distressed/hurt?

And would it be so bad if they were reminded to ring the home contact if the trip is getting back early - so that the Brownies are picked up promptly and they get to go home sooner?

Thank you InkandPaper

I had a guide and two brownie units going in my district. My daughter went with Guides. Just turned 10 it was her first time ever on a roller coaster! She had a great time.

Shame about the weather, there is no getting away from the fact that it spoilt the day a bit. But the girls still had fun. Glad your daughter did too.

Ink glad your dd had a good time. I too made sure I said thank you to the poor soaking wet girls waiting with dd.
September thank you for your advice about phone numbers, I will note down the Brown Owl's phone number for next time. I have it on my noticeboard.

SDTG thank you. You obviously made the point a lot better than I did! Perhaps easier to make without the emotional attachment.

Lets remember that we have no confirmation here to what extent they were early.

Our groups gave a home time of between 6.00-6.30. In the past we've had complaints comments that non-specific return times make it difficult for parents with other children who have to arrive at the earliest time and wait with restless children. For this reason we told parents we would gladly wait until 6.30 if they preferred to not arrive until then.

In fact they arrived back at 5.50pm.

Most parents were there around 6.00 so the girls weren't waiting long. But a small handful of girls had a minute wait for patents. Which could be viewed as "ages".

So lets remember here that the word of a 7 year old saying "ages" could mean many things.

That post was in response to SDTGisASpookyWoooolefGenius

Probably repeating much of what's been said before .....

But, try to establish the facts and what you'd like clarified or investigated.

"leaders" are 18 yo plus .... "brown owl" is not a qualification, being a "leader" is, so absence of "brown owl" but with enough other "leaders" is perfectly fine. Your child going away with just 16 yo "young leaders" is not. "Young leader" being a girlguiding term to define those under 18, not just those of us pushing 40 with blemish-free skin ;-)

Like any good story, sounds like good communication is at the root of this one. Ideal world, you'd have been told (or remembered) that contact wouldn't be made directly by leaders, but by the home contact as per girlguiding policy, and that all parents and leaders had the same idea of what requires notification (e.g. How early / late).

Having said all that, of course it's perfectly possible that in the chaos of one leader going sick, all the required information wasn't passed on to the replacement / other leaders. And if that's the case, then yes protocol does need improved (whether just a local, informal reminder - or on a wider scale).

Devil may also be in the detail - one particular leader may not "have had your number to hand / in her phone" but that's possibly not the same as "not having access to your number".

Just from what you've said, there's a variety of things that could have happened that were perfectly reasonable at the planning stage - perhaps the other buses / groups had a slightly different pick-up time, I've done that on big events to stagger slightly the amount of people and traffic. Great idea in theory, in practice however it would have been the first bus which got blocked in at the venue thus becoming the last bus home ..... Best-laid plans and all that!

Upshot is, as girlguiding leaders, we are obliged to run the trips in accordance with Girlguiding policy. Most of us do plan and carry out trips in that way. You are perfectly entitled (thus reasonable) to check that this was the case if you have any concerns.

i have done GAZIILIONS of trips in my life. you ALWAYS take the phone nos list.

Correction: "But a small handful of girls had a minute wait for patents" should have read "But a small handful of girls had a 40 minute wait for parents"

SeptemberBabies - hasn't the OP said that one of the other parents arrived half an hour before the scheduled pick-up time, to pick up another child from a different activity, saw the Brownies had already arrived, and picked up his dd? That, to me, is pretty clear confirmation that the group was home half an hour early, minimum.

if she had taken the nos they could call parents on the way back to say they were going to be early, then could get home faster

these sound like AMATEURS ;)

On our trips we always tell the parents we will be there ten mins before we will as the parents are always late, once one was one hour and a half late!

All these people saying children should know their parents mobiles , if a child is knocked unconscious or is involved in an accident they are hardly likely to jump up and recite the number are they ?

nah - not at age 7.
I am always surprised how many 11 yos don know their home no

They would not all have been 'young leaders' young leaders are all under 18 years of age, they cannot go anywhere without a warranted and licensed leader so if this is what you are saying has happened its more serious than you not being contacted to pick her up!

FWIW for a long time some of the parents at my old unit used to treat me in a very condescending manner and were very surprised to find out i was actually 25 and had been doing the job and taking girls away on holidays camps and days out for 5 years! I must have looked very young to them, but actually i was the most experienced leader in my unit.

So what im saying is, you cant go on appearances alone.

You can rest assured I didn't and will not treat anyone in a condescending manner.

If you ever have queries about anything of this nature with school, Brownies or other organisations, it is always best to ask THE PEOPLE THEMSELVES to get an accurate answer, rather than speculation from strangers. As has been said many times, it is good to ask politely and in an enquiring manner, rather than from a point of criticism.

I suspect there was nothing amiss with this trip. Some things may have not been absolutely ideal, but were probably fine.
So;
It is likely that a person not on the trip was the person who would make contact with all the parents in an emergency....as has been said, keeping those with the girls focused on them, rather than on making numerous phone calls.
Getting back early is not an emergency and waiting, even whilst wet is not a big deal. Perhaps the contact person had started ringing people, but of course it takes a while to ring 18 people. Perhaps those actually on the trip also asked the girls themselves if they knew contact numbers, to speed things up a bit....some knew and some didnt and not knowing wasn't a problem.
It is highly unlikely that there were no adult leaders on the trip.
It is highly unlikely that your child knows how the trip is organised, how the leaders contact people etc etc.

I would reserve feeling angry at this point and tell your husband to do the same. Gather more information first, if you need to.

And if you would like to know about procedures for trips etc with Brownies, schools or other organisation, do ask in advance. They will willingly give them to you.

And I think that the title of the thread is aggressive and critical.

You don't know that the leaders didn't have access to the numbers. They may have had a list in their bag,mor on their phone, or via a home contact.

The fact that they asked your child if she knew your no does not mean nobody had access to the numbers. The fact that no-one rang you does not mean they did not have access to your number.

It seems that the only facts are that the girls were wet and that they were back early from the trip.

SDTG we took 9 guides yesterday and due to the small numbers didnt need to tick anyone off a list when they were picked up because we know who they are and who their parents are and often see them being picked up when we are talking amoungst ourselves because we are aware of what is going on around us without making a song and dance about it. And of course all of our parents came over to say thank you at the end so we knew they were there to pick up their children, we but certainly didnt need to stand their ticking names off although I understand in a larger group this may be necessary. but then I've never seen this happen at a school, even with a school trip. I think in this case if the op was the last one to pick her child up then they would almost certainly have noticed her arriving and realised what was happening

Fair enough, Eustacia - but the OP said that the Leaders of her trip were completely unaware that she had collected her dd - that isn't right, surely?

Maybe this is just a sign of the times all the fussing about being contacted if you are back early etc. When I was a brownie our brown owl didnt have a mobile, if you were back early waited for your parents, but I sincerely hope that all those parents saying they expect to be contacted if the group are going to be back half an hour or so early, at the volunteers expense, always contact the leader if they are ever late picking their children up! In my experience, which is quite extensive, this communication only goes one way a lot of the time, and its usually the parents who make the most fuss who are the worst at communicating

I don't think YABU, I'm a St John Ambulance youth leader, and our cadets aren't allowed out with us without their signed paperwork, including contact numbers, I'm suprised that it wouldn't be regarded as a safe guarding issue, what about medical emergencies?