To expect dd's Brownie leaders to take contact numbers on a trip to a theme park?

[aleC4]

Dd went on a trip today with her Brownies to Drayton Manor. It was a big Guiding thing with 10,000 Rainbows, Brownies and Guides.
Obviously the weather was awful and she got absolutely soaked, she got through two pairs of trousers both of which feel like she has laid in a puddle. I know they can't do anything about the rain and I wouldn't dream of complaining to them about the weather.
However - I was a little concerned when I left her that there only appeared to be young girls in charge and no Brown Owl. However they are official Brownie leaders and there seemed enough of them. Apparently Brown Owl was ill and when they got there no-one had the tickets. They had to wait in the pouring rain while another leader from another pack had to come back from the park to get them in.
She has been on 3 rides all day which seemed strange to me as we have been on really, really busy days and always got plenty done. She said 3 of the leaders don't like the other one (in my opinion she shouldn't even know this!) and the one they don't like kept going off with children. Because of this they had to walk round for ages looking for this other leader because she wouldn't answer her phone.
They had to eat their packed lunch outside which although maybe not their fault seems ridiculous.
Sorry I am going on, now for the bit I am really cross about. They arrived back early, I'm not sure how early because I only have the word of a 7 year old, but in her words it was 'ages'. None of the other Guides, Brownies or Rainbows were there, they had already been picked up and I was 10 minutes early. It was raining and the girls looked freezing.
I walked up to the group and gave dd a cuddle (she was soaked!) and started walking away with her. I realised that none of the leders had even noticed she had gone as they were chatting to each other. I went back and told them I was taking her.
I asked dd if they were early as we were driving away. She said yes we got back really early and we had to wait. I asked where everyone else was and she said their leaders had rung their parents to come early. I asked her why we hadn't been rung and she said the leaders had not got any of their contact numbers!!!
I couldn't believe it. We had to provide all the details with the permission slip. They had been to a theme park over an hour away, all day, in the pouring rain with no-one but teenagers in charge and they had taken no-one's contact numbers. Please tell me we are NBU to be spitting feathers. Dh is absolutely fuming an ready to go in all guns blazing next week when she goes to Brownies. Obviously we will have to check the details but this is not right is it?

As others have said (another Brownie leader here) it's normal practice to take emergency contacts for all the girls you take with you. I agree that if Brown Owl was ill at the last minute, then it's possible the leaders (who will all have been over 18) may not have received them, but they will have had the number of the home contact who had all the numbers and (if they are leaders attached to your unit) been able to get onto the girls electronic records and hence their normal contact phone numbers if they had WiFi. I have to say if I'm a leader on a trip I wouldn't bother to ring parents if we got back early unless it was super early (which seems unlikely for a trip like this) just because of the tediousness of ringing multiple parents! I wonder if the girls rang parents themselves and then there was some passing of info by word of mouth. Or even that other units were told an earlier pick up time than you were.

I'm not really sure what the DC can do about it, other than make sure it didn't happen again. Although the Brown Owl should have phone the DC when she dropped out and the DC should have ensured it could still go ahead.

However, there are some rouge guiders out there who will ignore the dc, and then they'll get the delightful job of getting rid of them.

averylongtimeago of course we will ascertain all details first. I don't want anyone getting into massive trouble I just think if rules have been broken it needs to be talked about to make sure it doesn't happen again.
Just to clarify it was the other Brownie groups who had contacted parents and also the Guide and Rainbow groups attached to dd's unit. Her Brownie group were the only ones left. I just feel that if other Leaders thought it necessary to ring then it probably was.

Oh, and phoning around is so tedious. Everyone wants to have a little chat.

Slightly off-topic but averylongtimeago's post has reminded me of an activity we did in the summer. One Brownie turned up unexpectedly. I had no consent form for her so asked who'd brought her. "X's dad", she said, pointing at the car which was by now a spot in the distance. Luckily I also had my normal (non-activity specific) list of emergency contacts with me so I called her mother's mobile ... which went straight to voicemail.

Sometimes you do everything you can and parents still manage to wreck the system!

How ever early did the coach get back? I am extremely impressed by all these other leaders that spent time contacting every single one of their parents, managed to get through to all of them and then had every single parent able to drop everything and come straight away to pick their children up.

Redsky - you've articulated what I've been thinking. I suspect that the other groups were told a different pick-up time.

Redsky and Permanently, you remind me of the occasion when, returning by train from the Big Gig, we tried to contact our parents to say we had got an earlier train. All answered except one, and their second contact number also went to answer phone. We waited for nearly an hour in the cold for those parents (they would have been very late e end for the original pick up time). They had been at a party, with the other emergency contact, and turned their phones off....no apology, nothing.

I don't know how early they were but it was at least half an hour.

I think I'm repeating points already made but this has really made me a bit sad. I was there today and you seem to be making digs about several rather unfair things.Yes your daughter was soaked which wasn't nice. If she was going on rides this was unavoidable unfortunately. Everyone was caught in torrential rain. The leaders were all also soaked. It was truly terrible weather.

Going in all guns blazing shows a bit of a confrontational attitude to a group of people who voluntarily give up their weekend and more to do fun stuff with your child. Come rain or shine.

Regarding the number of rides she went on - the queues were as awful as ever (up to 1.5 hrs) and trying to get groups of children to decide on a ride is a nightmare so much time is wasted faffing about. There were very few options inside to eat lunch. 10000 people trying to eat lunch at about the same time isn't a recipe for a huge number of free inside seats. Sorry your daughter's leader couldn't magic up extra seating at the theme park.

You are negative about the other leaders and about the brown owl being ill. Would you rather they cancelled it then if brown owl couldn't be there or could you consider being grateful that others stepped up (even if they were young, heaven forbid)? The other brown owl went well out of her way to make sure your child could go by bringing the tickets for her pack. This was a nice thing to do. It does seem remiss that they didn't have your details - but put this in isolation of all your other issues and it's is one complaint that you should address in a level headed calm way with the main leader. Your daughter may have misunderstood or there may have been miscommunication. Maybe they didn't think being a bit early was an emergency which required them to text 'just' 16 people by typing in the numbers one by one into their phone at their own expense or they really may not have had your details. When you go in to discuss this calmly as you say you plan to now you'll be able to find this out and if mistakes have been made then procedures can be changed in future. But please put this in the context of a group of people giving their time freely to help others.

I don't know how early they were but it was at least half an hour

How do you know that?

I think you should do the pack a favour and pull your daughter out.

Ex-Brown Owl, Current Guide leader and DivC here. (not at DM yesterday)

As many have said, it seems like a series of separate events have culminated in your dd not having a great time:

1. the weather- no one's fault
2. huge queues - poor planning/managment by DM
3. the leaders who voluntarily stepped in (probably at very short notice) to cover your sick Brown owl yesterday probably did have the list of contact numbers, but if they had been hurriedly thrust in their hands that morning, they would not have had time to put them all in their phone, so for the sake of half an hour, didn't get around to phoning every single parent.

In my DivC role I deal with complaints like yours and I have a thicker skin than your poor Brown Owl does probably. Please don't be angry with your leaders (or these young girls- they are the leaders of tomorrow), cut them some slack. If you want to have a moan to someone, contact the event organisers with some feedback (along with some thanks)

Can I just add, I have been dealing with a nasty complaint this week, which has resulted in a fabulous Rainbow leader sobbing about what a parent has said about her (completely unfounded btw) and I have hard a hard time persuading her to stay in Guiding.

Many parents need to remember we are human too.

Just because people are volunteers, Hedgehog, it doesn't mean things can be done in a half-arsed way when it comes to kids' safety and safeguarding procedures. Many parents do give their time freely to all sorts of organisations, but the answer is not "Oh well you try it then!" when you have trusted someone to be in loco parentis.

That said, I always take the approach of trying to find out what actually happened first before saying anything...

Just been thinking about it. At my current school we don't take emergency details (data protection if they get lost) but instead phone the school who then deal with parents. Maybe they had this arrangement with home contact.

My 18 year old are great with the kids and very responsible. However, you do have to remember their age and at some times their behaviour reflects that e.g. gossiping about another leader. That doesn't necessarily mean the children are at risk.

so it was ur dd who knew they'd no contact nos? If u have to complain I'd be first checking this as seems unlikely... Secondly - and unconnected with this trip- I'd be teaching ur dd ur phone number. I'd regard you as a slightly unimpressive parent given that she doesn't already know this.

Also, next time you're leaving her in similar circs , if you're 'a little concerned' about arrangements , check before you leave.

At both of my DCs schools, for any trips away from school, the leaders take the parental contact numbers. And the school has a duplicate copy in case of emergencies. Same with my DCs scout and guide groups, there is also a designated home contact.

So for the OP's situation, I do agree questions should be asked.

I'd just check if they had the numbers or not and I'd certainly remember that these people are volunteers.

When we attended our County's Star Quest I only had 6 girls with 5 leaders. I did text the parents from the bus to state what bus we were on, and that it was now in such and such a place. We were nearly home when I realised I had finally finished texting. I had to input the numbers to my phone and copy and paste the text per girl. I used my own phone as I have unlimited texts. But if there isn't unlimited texts, then maybe there isn't a unit mobile phone to do this. Especially if they don't go on many trips.

My first port of call would be to clarify how early they arrived with BO and give her a chance to find out as she wasn't there.

I don't think it's wrong to ensure correct procedures are being carried out. I got rather fed up of hearing a guider say to me "For 30 years I've done it this way and why should I change?" She took offence to me telling her it was safeguarding and it was worth being careful otherwise what happens when it blows up in your face?

It may have said Brownie uniform on the form but I would have expected parents to send waterproofs. One of my brownies learned the hard way when she discarded her coat in granny's car and I phoned mum to bring it as she was cold because we were outside.

sickntired I know this because I found out later that my friends husband (who didn't have my number) was picking his ds up from a football match half an hour before they were due back. The match was at the same pick up point. He noticed that there was a group of people waiting and realised it was the brownies so he collected his daughter.
Also, why would I pull my daughter out? I guess you're implying that I sound like one of 'those' parents and I'm not very nice. Well you're wrong. I am a nice person who cares about her child and wants her to be safe when out of my care.
Christhemoose I don't consider being back early an 'emergency'. It just would have been nice to have had the opportunity to lessen the suffering for everyone, Brownies and Leaders alike. My issue was not that we had not been contacted, my issue was the possibility that contact numbers had not been taken on the trip. Whatever others are saying, I do not believe having a home contact is enough. If that is procedure than fine but I think it possibly needs looking at.

Fatowl I am not angry with the leaders I just wanted to ascertain whether or not I was being unreasonable expecting them to take contact numbers on this trip. I still don't believe I was. I am of course grateful to all of them for giving up their time so my daughter can enjoy Brownies. If it turns out that they did carry the contact numbers then my daughter was either mistaken or told wrongly by one of the Leaders, If they didn't, I think they should have done.
Pearpotter thanks. That's what I have been trying to say all along. Being a volunteer does not make the care and safety of the children any different.

Saoirse I wondered how lingit would be before this as my fault. You can rest assured that I am not an 'unimpressive' parent. I don't expect my 7 year old to be able to remember my mobile phone number but next time she goes anywhere like this without me she will have it on a piece of paper in her bag. Hilarious that my dd not knowing my phone number makes me a poor parent. If only that was as bad as poor parenting gets. I guess in my job I sadly see more poor parenting than most and the result is not a pretty sight for the poor children in those families.

I do not believe having a home contact is enough. If that is procedure than fine but I think it possibly needs looking at.

Your arrogance is astounding.

District commissioner here. And Brownie leader. And Teacher. And parent.

The Home Contact mechanism is Girlguiding policy so if you have issue with this perfectly safe, in accordance with Safeguarding and Data Protection policy - then please attempt to take it up on a national level with Girlguiding in London rather than bothering your lovely grassroots leaders with your attitude.

If it turns out that they did carry the contact numbers then my daughter was either mistaken or told wrongly by one of the Leaders, If they didn't, I think they should have done.

[rolls eyes]. One of "those Mums".

If you don't like it then take your daughter out of Brownies or by all means take her out of this wonderful organisation. The leaders were following policy.

If you don't like Girlguiding policy, leave Girlguiding.

Being a volunteer does not make the care and safety of the children any different.

We have lengthy Safeguarding policies. The leaders you mention may have been 18, 19, 20 or so years old. Quite common for young adults to run units in, for example, university towns. They may look young to you. They would be unable to take the Brownies into Drayton Manor unless there was as adult:child ratio of 1:8. Fact.

Being home early is no emergency. They just needed to wait for paents to arrive.

Mountain. Molehill.

Is your daughter planning on staying at Brownies and maybe going on to Guides. Your "one of those Mums" attitude will stick to your daughter like glue. There is no need in this case to inflict it on her.

None at all.

Nothing out of the ordinary or wrong has happened. Think twice.

Yanbu.

If you're going to take my/your/any child on a trip, you do it properly, or not at all. You need contact numbers. End of.

The Home Contact:

In the event of emergency the leader leaves contact details for everyone on a trip with someone who is not on the trip.

Therefore if an emergency happens the leader needs make only one phone call and not 18 phone calls. This frees up the leader to deal with the actual emergency and the girls in her care.

Much better to be keeping the girls safe, than spending valuable minutes fiddling with a mobile phone in an emergency.