To be a bit dismayed if 4 million women visit this site,why are there so few posts on the feminism threads?

[Scarletohello]

Ok so I know there are lots of lurkers but if there are really millions of women who go on MN, why are so many threads on the feminism section consisting of so few women? It doesn't make sense to me as so many issues that
women post about on many different topics are actually feminist issues when it comes down to it...

I've never been to the boards, I may take a look but I'm dubious given the experience I had on one feminist board where I was condescended too and treated like I didn't have a clue. Now I tend to not bother with anything that can spark real debate (hence why I stay away from political too) because I found that people on the feminist board I was on were just wanting to shout their opinion as fact and class anyone who disagreed as supporting the patriarchy. And they were very extreme (to the point of laughable) about it to.

I like debate, it's good to be challenged. I do not like to be told 'don't piss in the wind and call it rain' and then condescended too when I disagree with things.

MyEmpire I don't think the term PIV is used as a convenient shorthand for vaginal sex on the FWR board.

Its used as a convenient shorthand for sex itself being anti feminist and misogynist.

Which is where the FWR starts to lose me....

I always took PIV to imply a limited and simplistic understanding of what sex is, that PIV is the only way to enjoy a sexual relationship with another person.
Rather than the endless possibilities that actually exist.

Is Dittany really gone - thought I saw her a while back under a name change. I could often agree with her basic point but not the aggressive and bullying way she would try and take down some posters.

Off site FB rallying would explain a lot.

i find it's like any section on this site - there are many threads i don't get involved in because i don't understand or i'm not interested, or it's outwith my experience so it might be better for me to lurk if i'm interested in the discussion, or because i don't have the time or emotional energy at that point

it's a real shame to see women saying that they don't feel welcome if they are a SAHM. i have never seen being a SAHM anything but fiercely defended over there. there are 1-2 posters who are against women becoming SAHP, but they post all over MN and are well known for those views, not just on FWR section

i would agree that MN has a strong feminist leaning generally, and actually i see thread topics repeated (coincidentally, not by design) in more general areas like _chat and AIBU at the same time as FWR. more often than not there are similar opinions expressed in all sections

PIV In the FWR board is often equated to rape.

downbytheriverside IME most feminists would agree with exactly what you have just said about sex and PIV sex specifically

Why does the term PIV make me want to punch people?

Well for a start because its a term that you have to know in order to engage which by its very existence means that debate is elitist and selective. You have to be part of the club to join it. Its just sex. Or vaginal sex if you want to be descriptive. The term carries certain associations though that vaginal sex does not (as others have pointed out above) though and immediately takes a debate in a certain direction without even making a point.

Tbh it sums up just about everything I dislike about FWR boards in three letters. Its like feminist swearing to me! I just find it offensive!

MyEmpireOfDirt, the point is that FWR has its own terminology that's often inaccessible and elitist in nature and often words and phrases carry loaded and multiple messages. 'PIV' is the simplest most purest form of representing that.

I posted recently on the fwr board and found it on the whole not that helpful. I got some good advice, but it turned into a bit of a bunfight between two posters over an unrelated matter and I was told to take my problem to the relationships board. I wasn't looking for relationships advice, I was looking for advice on the unfair legal aid policy that prevents many women in emotionally abusive relationships getting the legal help they really need.

Yes my relationship was shit, but i didn't want help with that, I wanted help on what I see as a feminist issue. I don't think I will post there again.

Because not all women are feminists (I am not)

Because even if they are, talking about feminism is usually boring as hell

Because self-declared feminists in the feminism forum make for poor debaters... they are 100% convinced they are right, so what's the point of discussing anything with them?

...etc, etc

Whatever the reasons, the facts are, if the forum is deserted, it is just not interesting enough.

Just so you can see what I mean this is my thread from a couple of days ago:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2220810-what-can-i-do-to-change-this

MyEmpireOfDirt, PIV sex being rape is exactly the argument that I was referring to in my comment, where several vocal people shouted their opinions as facts and were condescending. This wasn't on these forums though but other ones several years ago. It left a bad enough taste for me to never go back and avoid debate in all sections!

People dress opinion up as fact all the time. I'm happy to be challenged, to see real facts but not opinions, lies or some dubious 'statistics'. Once I see people pushing their opinion as fact and shutting down or minimising others, I click 'close'. I'll argue offline but online, I can't be arsed with that shit- which usually comes from people desperately seeking validation. I'm going to look at the forums, lurk and make up my own opinion but from what's been said here so far, I don't hold out much enthusiasm. Here's hoping for a nice surprise.

I don't post much in FWR but I do lurk a lot and have learned so much from the regulars there, even if I don't always agree (and quite often have to go away and have a think about things to work it out afterwards - this can take days...).

And most of them have great senses of humour :)

I didn't particularly get on with Dittany and she posted some very, very horrible stuff off-board that made me shy away from her as a person, but wow, she knew her subject and she really made me think about stuff - I had a few 'not all men' apologist tendencies and I'd never considered the definition of sex to be other than PIV before reading her posts (everything else was 'foreplay' and not 'real' sex), which was a total eyeopener.

I cannot, however, see the point of this thread - haven't read the accompanying one in FWR.

Scarlet, if you wanted to rouse the anti-feminists on MN to have a go at FWR, well done, you've succeeded, and they've been allowed on this thread to paint a portrait of an unfriendly, cliquey, overly-intellectual, quite hateful group that I just don't recognise. Unfortunately people reading this who don't know the FWR boards will take that as a warning and stay away, just reinforcing the cliche that all feminists are humourless theorists who tear down anyone who disagrees with them.

For the most part I find the feminist on the feminist board do a really good job of alienating people because of their tetchiness and militancy.

Scarlet, if you wanted to rouse the anti-feminists on MN to have a go at FWR, well done, you've succeeded, and they've been allowed on this thread to paint a portrait of an unfriendly, cliquey, overly-intellectual, quite hateful group that I just don't recognise. Unfortunately people reading this who don't know the FWR boards will take that as a warning and stay away, just reinforcing the cliche that all feminists are humourless theorists who tear down anyone who disagrees with them.

100% agreeing, it's made me dubious. Maybe that was the intention?

flanjabelle I've just read your thread. It was derailed and that isn't nice but it wasn't derailed by a feminist. I actually thought everyone prior to the derailment was very helpful and supportive. They recognised they couldn't offer you practical support but signposted where you could get it. I suppose you could interpret this as being dismissive because they couldn't help you how you wanted to be helped? I felt the signposting was given kindly though.