To HATE the way my friends educate their children?

[Littlefrenchmummy]

I love reading things on mumsnet, especially this section. Today I was confronted with a situation that happens so often in my life and really gets me angry... You ladies are very honest so tell me if Im being a bitch or if you would feel the same.

Today my husband and I caught up with some old friends, like us they have a 4 year old boy. From the minute we met to when we left he trantrumed. He cried for EVERYTHING and not once was disciplined. (By that I dont mean punched in the face btw, I just mean told to behave).
He cried because he could only use his bike and not his scooter (sat on the pavement and screamed for 10 mins while we waited. Eventually parents gave in).
He cried because we crossed the road before him.
He cried because we were talking.
He cried because he couldn't get juice at the restaurant even though his parents were ordering him the juice.
He stood on tables, rode his scooter in the restaurant, shouted constantly.
He wouldn't speak to my son, only watch cartoons on his parents phone, wouldn't share the crayons to draw even though he didn't want to draw.
Kicked his brothers pram while he was sleeping. Etc etc... And all his parents were saying was "OH NO, if you do this again we are going to get cross!"

I just can't bare it. Its so horrible to sit through this, you can't have a conversation, my son isn't having fun, people at the restaurant are staring. I never want to hang out with my friends again. I love them but I hate their child, or more exactly I hate the way they educate him and turn him into complete dick head.

I have so many friends like them... so so many. Some worse, some less, but the result is the same: hanging out with them is painful. People who think you dont need to educate your children, that they have 'difficult' kid who cry a lot. They think its normal that if their child screams their name in the middle of a conversation, 10x times during 1 conversation, they should always stop and say yes darling instead of teaching them not to interrupt and wait while adults are talking.

I know some children are more difficult than others and that disorders exist. One of my son's is difficult and has a terrible character, still he doesn't behave like this. If I let him he would but I dont. I also have friends who have children with disorders, but in the cases Im talking about, its just complete lack of education.

Im loosing so many friends over this. I stop answering calls and make excuses not to hang out with them because I can't tell them how to educate their children. Who can tell a mother in the face that you dont like their child's behaviour? How awkward would that be?

We have made such a cut in our friends and now I am so picky. it sucks !
But why aren't people educating their children to behave?

Am I being unreasonable to feel this way or do other parents feel like this?

I think Pagwitch was saying she isn't an expert.

I have met many children with SN, both before and after diagnosis. I have met very very few children with parents who didn't discipline at all, some were stricter than others, but almost all disciplined their children to some degree.

In fact the only one I can think of who was like the Daily Mail stereotype permissive parent - well actually I suspect (but don't know, I only knew them for 10+ years, and not professionally) but I do suspect both mother and daughter had some kind of SN (or something else in the mother's background).

Dr Spock used to be considered permissive, and he advocated leaving DC to sleep outside every day it wasn't actually snowing.

Dr Spock used to be considered permissive, and he advocated leaving DC to sleep outside every day it wasn't actually snowing.

Well, this is what you get when you take parenting advice from a Vulcan.

Funny that a pediatrician says that my DD can't be diagnosed yet as they don't do it at her age (although he is pretty sure she will get one) is wrong. If only he knew that the people who judge across a room can tell that she is NT and just badly behaved (as many do judge) right now.

BTW her behaviour at one point in time looks EXACTLY like an NT child being a PITA. It is the patterns, the change over time, the cumulative stuff that makes her behaviour special, not one snapshot.

Bad character would suggest you don't like your child's personality, you think they aren't a good person - not what you meant at all so definitely worth clarifying

Oops ignore that, read posts in the wrong order!

I think its fine to only see your friend without the children if that works better for you

Yes will definitely do that now

I think were just different. I think she doesn't mind being interrupted 12 times per sentence, she's just got a level of tolerance way more elevated than mine.

To all the mummies who have little ones with special needs I get you and I don't want to comment because I hear your point of view and it makes sense.

However wether he has any condition or not she chooses to let him rule everyone's life and its hard. I know a lot of you will jump in and say she might not have a choice, trust me, I was there, I've known them for a long time- she did. ANYWAY I think most of the arguments have been made here and I wish you all a nice evening

X

OP I don't think you are BU. I don't like bad behaviour or bad manners either. I wouldn't expect a child older than 3 to have a tantrum. By then they should (could?) have learned that tantrums don't have any effect, because their parents should (could) have taught them that by then. I'm not perfect either, but by age 3 DS knew there was absolutely no point whatsoever in having a tantrum because he knew he still wouldn't get his own way. Like you said, we should teach our children manners and good behaviour. If DS asks me for something and I say no, he says, 'Oh OK'. I've heard other children of his age (6) throw a complete wobbly if the parents refuse them something.

And I'm not smug. I have got other stuff so wrong on occasion.

I'm not going to comment on the SN aspect of the thread because I don't have any experience or knowledge. But can I just ask, if you don't give into a child who has special needs, and is having a tantrum, what happens? For instance I know a mum whose DS has autism, and every time there is an occasion when he pushes the boundaries, she gives in. I have never seen her manage his bad behaviour effectively. Is that OK? As a result he is very very difficult to be around, and I don't think that is anything to do with his SN. Or am I wrong? I'm perfectly happy to be told I'm wrong here.

You may well be wrong.

"Tantrums" in autism are often more like meltdowns triggered by anxiety. Standard discipline will not work and child is not being "naughty".

The poor child is going to be more "difficult to be around" if he has autism.

I think you need to go and learn a bit more about it. You are judging him becsuse he doesnt behave in an acceptable NT fashion.

But err he has autism.

Children with autism often need to control their environment to reduce anxiety. Not because they are spoilt.

Not saying kids with autism cant also play up but really you need to apply a slight bit of understanding.

My son still has tantrums at nearly 4. It's his birthday at the weekend and I doubt they are going to stop overnight.

In his case it's not because he thinks it will get him what he wants (it won't) but because he can't yet regulate his emotions and deal with disappointment. It's frustrating and embarrassing (and hard to see him get himself into such a state) but all we can do is model calm and accepting behavior and wait for him to mature. It does not happen because we give him whatever he wants and don't set boundaries for his behavior!

Why is it that any post on MN about poor parenting or children's tantrums always gets hijacked and turned into something about SN?

It turns into something about SN just to piss people off obviously .

or perhaps because many children with SN don't have a sign telling all and sundry they have these difficulties. Instead their parents cope and have to deal with judgemental folk who can tell from observation if a child has SN or not.

Naturally when people read posts like the OP they not unreasonably point out that the child might have some SN not broadcast or known about.

Of course the child might NOT have any SN but the fact is we don't know. Too many people just judge.

I mean how fucking dare we point out that the child might have SN. How terrible.

So, here a question that I'm sure will get a response.

If a child has SN and is in a public place, behaving in a way which upsets other members of the public (for example, shouting continually in a restaurant or running around and refusing to sit down) is that okay, if their SN is contributing to the behaviour?

I understand the child might find it more difficult to behave in a way most people would consider acceptable, and it might be difficult or inappropriate for the parents to respond as one might usually expect. I also understand that of course children and parents of SN children need to have a life and to get out and about, and probably find many restrictions in day to day life anyway. So my Q is, quite simply if and when does the impact of SN on other members of the public mean parents have to intervene or remove their children? I can see that the point of intervention or removal might be different, but is there one? And I don't ask to be offensive. This thread has made me wonder about this question.

It depends Chocolate. Do you think someone who is non-verbal, adult, who makes loud noises as a result of their disability should never be allowed to go to a restaurant? Because it might upset someone...

I think most parents of children with SN do pick where they go and what they do but I don't necessarily think they should have to.

GratefulHead - a number of people have said that it isn't about the child, it is about the parents' response, or lack thereof to the bad behaviour. If a NT parent is letting their child scoot around a restaurant on their scooter, then I will judge that parent for being ineffectual, laissez-faire, wooly parents who don't care about the impact their child's behaviour has on those around them.

And of course we can all have the odd day when we throw in the towel - but the OP has seen the parents allowing this sort of bad behaviour on a number of occasions, so I don't think it is a case of a snapshot of one bad day.

Mrsfrumble please read all the thread, no one said children who are 4 can't have tantrums anymore?

The people who deal with SN are right to point out his behaviour might be due to some condition. But also please open your minds to the fact it might not and he might just be spoilt as hell. And in that case maybe you think thats ok, thats all up to you, but I think its not.

LFM I was responding to farewellfigure's post where she wrote "I wouldn't expect a child older than 3 to have a tantrum".

You're right ! Sorry !

... And I just wanted to point out that tantrums aren't always about manipulating to get what you want.

DS has always been a highly-strung character who struggles to cope with his giant feelings. It's a delight when the emotions he's overflowing with are joy and excitement; less so when he's angry or disappointed. DH and I are both reserved and self-possessed by nature so it's been a shock for us to have such a demonstrative child!

I agree with that too. Tantrums can be signs of many things, YET there is a limit to what you should put up with. Especially in a restaurant. He was trying to be the centre of attention but any means and they thought it was fine. SO ANNOYING.

Oh sure. If DS kicks off in restaurant he gets taken outside straight away!

I would remove my child if he was behaving in a dangerous or distructive way or if he had become upset by the environment. I wouldn't remove him because others don't like his noise.