To HATE the way my friends educate their children?

[Littlefrenchmummy]

I love reading things on mumsnet, especially this section. Today I was confronted with a situation that happens so often in my life and really gets me angry... You ladies are very honest so tell me if Im being a bitch or if you would feel the same.

Today my husband and I caught up with some old friends, like us they have a 4 year old boy. From the minute we met to when we left he trantrumed. He cried for EVERYTHING and not once was disciplined. (By that I dont mean punched in the face btw, I just mean told to behave).
He cried because he could only use his bike and not his scooter (sat on the pavement and screamed for 10 mins while we waited. Eventually parents gave in).
He cried because we crossed the road before him.
He cried because we were talking.
He cried because he couldn't get juice at the restaurant even though his parents were ordering him the juice.
He stood on tables, rode his scooter in the restaurant, shouted constantly.
He wouldn't speak to my son, only watch cartoons on his parents phone, wouldn't share the crayons to draw even though he didn't want to draw.
Kicked his brothers pram while he was sleeping. Etc etc... And all his parents were saying was "OH NO, if you do this again we are going to get cross!"

I just can't bare it. Its so horrible to sit through this, you can't have a conversation, my son isn't having fun, people at the restaurant are staring. I never want to hang out with my friends again. I love them but I hate their child, or more exactly I hate the way they educate him and turn him into complete dick head.

I have so many friends like them... so so many. Some worse, some less, but the result is the same: hanging out with them is painful. People who think you dont need to educate your children, that they have 'difficult' kid who cry a lot. They think its normal that if their child screams their name in the middle of a conversation, 10x times during 1 conversation, they should always stop and say yes darling instead of teaching them not to interrupt and wait while adults are talking.

I know some children are more difficult than others and that disorders exist. One of my son's is difficult and has a terrible character, still he doesn't behave like this. If I let him he would but I dont. I also have friends who have children with disorders, but in the cases Im talking about, its just complete lack of education.

Im loosing so many friends over this. I stop answering calls and make excuses not to hang out with them because I can't tell them how to educate their children. Who can tell a mother in the face that you dont like their child's behaviour? How awkward would that be?

We have made such a cut in our friends and now I am so picky. it sucks !
But why aren't people educating their children to behave?

Am I being unreasonable to feel this way or do other parents feel like this?

I think the point is LaQ only has to give her DC " the look" and they know exactly what she means.
She isnt hissing at them, eyerolling, shouting and ranting, she doesnt sound " a harsh disciplinarian" but a good firm but fair parent.
I think you are projecting Nicki

If only LAQ you could use it on OPC!

I HATE this concept of death stare parenting. I have very very rarely (maybe even never) told either of mine off in a way which meant raising my voice or ranting, or losing my shit (I'm not counting locking myself in a room and sobbing in frustration over dd2 ??). Did I just have ridiculously easy kids? I dunno.

I am definitely more of a Raised Eyebrow parent.

OP, yanbu.

We stopped meeting friends due to their ineffectual parenting. Constantly tantruming toddler who was frequently physically violent to dd. was met with refrains of "stop doing that or we're leaving the park" etc.

Kid would carry on and parents wouldn't leave the park. Just taught the kid he could do what he wanted and ignore any threats as he knew the parents wouldn't act.

Dd is a teenager now but I do remember her having the odd melt down. Generally however she was well behaved when out for meals in pubs, restaurants, etc. I never once had to remove her but I would have done had her behaviour merited it.

If she got too noisy at any point then I'd remind her that other people were eating and didnt want their dinner spoiling.

Maybe this makes me smug.

Oh and I've seen scootering in coffee shops so I can believe it happens.

Ooh, funny little boxes. Insert your own emoticon

I'm not projecting at all. I am using a RL experience to describe the results of parenting techniques that you use. I am reminded of it by your descriptions.

It sounds to me like you and quite a few others on this thread believe that if only we all parented like you, our children would all be immaculately behaved, your posts read in a very judgmental fashion. Can I ask if you have considered any of the points I made about different personalities in children and different family dynamics, which could mean that the techniques you support may not be effective?

'Bad behaviour' is subjective.
I think there might be some grey areas but hope we could agree that some things are categorically bad behaviour. Scooting in restaurants fits into this category in my book.

I agree that some children might be easier to parent than others. However, all children need boundaries and consistency and probably the ones who benefit most from these are those who are harder to parent.

There is an age which is difficult for many - probably around 18 months until 36 months. A child of this age is usually not able to sit at a table for 2 hours while parents enjoy a leisurely meal.....so why put yourself and them in a situation where behaviour which is inappropriate for that setting is likely?

However, there are older children who are often seen running round restaurants, interfering with other diners, shrieking etc. I would say most of the over 3s are capable of being out and that those who still run around etc are simply BEING ALLOWED to do it. If a parent tells them to stop, but they carry on and the. The parent does not STOP it happening further, that is allowing them to do it. Parents have a choice. They can intervene and prevent the behaviour if they really want them to stop.
This comes back to what I said before, which is that parents are often AFRAID to insist on certain behaviours. The child might shriek or cry (most likely if parents have never before followed through on what they have said) and the parent is afraid of the scene which might ensue. So they leave the child to run around.
If the child shrieked or cried when I stopped them doing something they had already been told not to do, then I would remove them from that room. It would probably involve leaving the restaurant and going outside or into the loos for a bit of a talking to. Yes, it would be annoying for me as a parent and possibly a bit embarrassing, but better than just ignoring the behaviour I have told the child to stop. Better for the child to learn I mean what I say, to learn that running around I a restaurant isn't acceptable and better for all the other diners.

So I say to the parents of small children, don't just ask for acceptable behaviour and then ignore it when the child continues to misbehave...intervene. Do it at home, so the shrieking and resisting can happen there, rather than when out. Take responsibility as the adult and don't allow the small person to become a little dictator.

Of course it goes without saying that I have beautifully behaved children...well, one out of two ain't bad . But dd2 has LDs and autism, so frankly, getting through a public meal without her minesweeping somebody else's drinks was considered a roaring success [drink]. We didn't eat out much...

I wonder why nearly everyone on MN has friends who are shit parents.

I also wonder if any of your friends post on here about how they think you are a shit parent...

Usual, come on. We're talking about a child scooting around a restaurant ffs. That's not asseptible acceptable in anyone's book. It's bloody dangerous, for starters.

And the 'stare' whether you call it a death stare or a hard look or whatever, isn't a sign of hatred towards the child. Of course it isn't. It is actually a look of love, because it is a parent showing they have noticed the unacceptable behaviour. They have chosen to acknowledge it in a low key way, without words or shouting or anything else. It is a first warning and often will be sufficient to stop the behaviour.
If it isn't the parent will follow up with words and if those still don't work, there might be more words and then action.

To my mind, the parent who never corrects their child, nor follows through with a threatened punishment, isn't actually acting in a loving way. Loving a child involves many things, including hugs, encouragement, playing, fun, affirmation.....but also teaching them how to behave.
The 'Darling, that isn't nice' comment to a 4 year old hitting someone, followed by nothing more when said child continues hitting, isn't loving.

I was childless for a long number of years and spent a lot of time with my friends and relatives when they were parenting. The one lesson I took from it when it came to my turn was if you say something you have to follow through and be consistent even if you feel you can't be arsed. If you give in generally even the most well behaved child will keep trying it on.

Of course there are shit parents out there because there are loads of shit people out there. I know a few people who have terribly behaved kids because of the way they parent but it would've been more a surprise to me if they had turned out to be effective parents. Usually it's the narcissistic self involved ones where they are able to ignore their own kids bad behaviour and blame everyone else.

"Wielded my gavel with panache" why thank you!

I judged only what you have posted LaQueen I didn't dive straight in, I read the entire thread and quite a number of posts from you with the repetitive use of "Death Stare" which is what drove me to post. I have seen you refer to it many times, it's not a technique I like, also I don't think it's particularly effective in the long term, resulting more in dislike for the parent than respect.

I do think with small kids you have to choose your battles to a certain extent.

When dd was 2yo we were out for lunch with friends at a nature park vistor centre, so fairly kid friendly. Dd lay on the floor at one point and refused to get up when I asked her.

I left her there and my childless friend asked me why I was letting her get away with it. I said that IMHO she wasn't been noisy, was in a corner out the way and though it wasnt ideal she wasn't annoying anyone. I said I'd rather pick my battles.

When he soon after that had a kid he said he'd always remembered that.

I think when I meant business, dd knew I meant it.

I'm not just talking about the OP though, loads of posts on this thread have an example of bad parenting by that posters friends. It always happens on these sort of threads.

So do only Mnetters know how to parent?

Baffles me TBH.

I think that's spot on Viva. Hard to do sometimes though, especially when you're feeling judged. I do think outsiders really want to See Something Done, when actually you know your child and have judged the situation to be one that will subside naturally with minimal input.

I have known quite a few kids who were challenging horrors at 4 and grew up into lovely children.

Should we really worry whether others think we are a sh*t parent? I think not. So if I had really judgmental friends I would swap them for non-judgmental friends.

The problem starts when the period required to allow an episode to naturally subside becomes intolerable to all those around.

PumpkinSizedMammaries Sun 26-Oct-14 18:50:03

I have known quite a few kids who were challenging horrors at 4 and grew up into lovely children.

Parenting is one of those things that make you feel judged, especially if you are the kind of person who cares about what others think.

Children do things and outsiders see them doing things and the way we respond and it's easy to feel judged. We've all been in a supermarket with a child crying in the trolley and a few Grannies tutting, or experienced disapproval however we parent our children.

I think the thing is to have a bit of a plan for parenting and to have confidence in that plan and sod what others think or react. So if my child hollers in a restaurant, I warn them to stop or they will be removed. When they continue, I remove them, carrying them out if necessary. This will probably provoke some stares because of the noise and my removing them. However, I know that I am following through on what I said and I have every confidence that I am doing the right thing, despite disapproving looks. I don't see this the same as people glaring at me for allowing the child to continue hollering or running around.

We shouldn't let fear of being judged by others stop us acting to discipline our child.
And no parent is perfect. I don't think posters are saying that people who don't discipline their children are shit parents per se. People who hear it like that, sound too worried about what people think and to be missing the point. Parenting isn't easy, awkward children are not easy......but it is our job to teach our children how to behave and the longer we leave it, the more difficult it will be.

Muddling no, parents didn't change anything, just stayed consistent.