To HATE the way my friends educate their children?

[Littlefrenchmummy]

I love reading things on mumsnet, especially this section. Today I was confronted with a situation that happens so often in my life and really gets me angry... You ladies are very honest so tell me if Im being a bitch or if you would feel the same.

Today my husband and I caught up with some old friends, like us they have a 4 year old boy. From the minute we met to when we left he trantrumed. He cried for EVERYTHING and not once was disciplined. (By that I dont mean punched in the face btw, I just mean told to behave).
He cried because he could only use his bike and not his scooter (sat on the pavement and screamed for 10 mins while we waited. Eventually parents gave in).
He cried because we crossed the road before him.
He cried because we were talking.
He cried because he couldn't get juice at the restaurant even though his parents were ordering him the juice.
He stood on tables, rode his scooter in the restaurant, shouted constantly.
He wouldn't speak to my son, only watch cartoons on his parents phone, wouldn't share the crayons to draw even though he didn't want to draw.
Kicked his brothers pram while he was sleeping. Etc etc... And all his parents were saying was "OH NO, if you do this again we are going to get cross!"

I just can't bare it. Its so horrible to sit through this, you can't have a conversation, my son isn't having fun, people at the restaurant are staring. I never want to hang out with my friends again. I love them but I hate their child, or more exactly I hate the way they educate him and turn him into complete dick head.

I have so many friends like them... so so many. Some worse, some less, but the result is the same: hanging out with them is painful. People who think you dont need to educate your children, that they have 'difficult' kid who cry a lot. They think its normal that if their child screams their name in the middle of a conversation, 10x times during 1 conversation, they should always stop and say yes darling instead of teaching them not to interrupt and wait while adults are talking.

I know some children are more difficult than others and that disorders exist. One of my son's is difficult and has a terrible character, still he doesn't behave like this. If I let him he would but I dont. I also have friends who have children with disorders, but in the cases Im talking about, its just complete lack of education.

Im loosing so many friends over this. I stop answering calls and make excuses not to hang out with them because I can't tell them how to educate their children. Who can tell a mother in the face that you dont like their child's behaviour? How awkward would that be?

We have made such a cut in our friends and now I am so picky. it sucks !
But why aren't people educating their children to behave?

Am I being unreasonable to feel this way or do other parents feel like this?

Too many parents think it's the job of schools to teach their children how to behave as well as everything else.

Wow what a response! Well a lot of you have a very good points.i pick up on the non disciplining in public comments, and completely respect that. Some things are better kept for home and maybe thats what they did ? But also some behaviours need to be addressed there and then.
His scooter had a very loud bell and he kept ringing it. Over and over. People were watching and it was so annoying and his dad kept saying if you do that one more time... And he'd ring it 5 more times staring at him straight in the eyes ... And nothing. At one point he climbed on the sides of the big chimney mantel piece ( sorry if its not exactly called that) ( and the fire was off!) and the people sat by the fire place had to move their chair to allow his climbing... It was really bad.
I agree if a child has a complete melt down in a restaurant you take him out. If he does it each time you don't take him to restaurants again.
But maybe thats me being too rigid.

We have know our friends for 2 years and despite not liking their parenting I still like them but cant handle it anymore. Their son is getting worse and worse. He never has boundaries. He was alright ish at 2, at 4 he is not nice.

Also re the other friends we 'cut off' I would say there were maybe 3 other couples?
For example one of the children would systematically run into the house, jump on our couch with muddy shoes. I had to ask him to remove them the mum thought it was normal. I hated having to ask I thought it was awkward! We had expensive blinds he would play with them and break them, each time! The Mum thought it was unfortunate, never offered to replace any. And also he always ended up hitting/ biting my son ( shocking).Broke his toys. Tried to bite his mum if she told him no. After 18 months of play dates that was it. And yes a couple of more friends with children like that, who do whatever they want. I don't get it?
By the way that child became worse and worse in the 18 months. He had no behaviour pbms, he was actually an extremely loving boy he just had no boundaries or manners. I think he was suffering from it?
I'm not exaggerating any of those facts and probably forgetting other things.
And no MY son isn't perfect. He has broken things, done bad things it happened/ happens. But not each time I see friends. And he knew it was wrong and I addressed it.

Anyway thats why I posted because it wasn't a one off. Quite a few people find this normal. The walking in the house and standing on the couch with shoes at the age of four is one that I notice a lot.
There is no NO anymore. Some children do whatever they want so I posted wondering if that was normal now? What would your reaction be if you saw this a lot? If you would just hang out with your friend and accept that a pub lunch ( but their behaviour is just as bad at their house when we met for tea) is like that, that 3 year old have to systematically break your house and hit your child etc?

My other friend has a little girl who tantrums quite a lot she has such a strong personality. Still I love them. She addresses her behaviour and doesn't not let her get away with murder. I accept children are not perfect ! But they cant DECIDE everything with no limits? I don't know.

I was so shocked by yesterday's lunch I just didn't know what to think anymore. I hated every second of it.

Have a great sunday everyone! X

I do think you need to find some new friends. I am pretty relaxed with kids and their behaviour but I would find this stuff annoying.

I initially took exception to your first post because it sounded like you were saying 'do you agree these people should be parenting differently' which sounds a bit judgemental tbh.
But if you are saying, 'should I make an effort to find friends who's parenting style is more like mine, so who's company I enjoy more', then yes, I think you should.

I have a friend who parents very very differently from me, far more relaxed. BUT her children have grown up (the oldest ones are 21, 19 and 18 ish) to be gorgeous young adults - polite, thoughtful and polite.

I always thought badly of parents whose children always interrupted. Now I have one, she has ASD and really doesn't get that this is wrong, actually I think she doesn't notice that I'm talking to someone else/am on the phone.

Maybe your friends found the whole thing as fraught as you? Knowing you were judging. Going to the kind of restaurant they would normally avoid?

Although I have to say I was shocked this week, I was waiting for my DD to have a music lesson. At the centre there is a nice sitting room to wait in with sofas. I was shocked to see a child put their muddy trainers on the sofa and their mother not tell them off at all.
So yes we all judge, but to be honest unless you've been in anothers shoes you have no idea.

Oh and finally the English are not the worst at this, some others seem far more lax imho.

I thought about that but they booked the place and suggested the lunch ! They genuinely thought it was all just GREAT. They just kept saying he was such a difficult child and it was the lottery, some children are easy some aren't. I agree to that but to some extent..

And Im not talking about children who have behaviour difficulties (sorry if its not exactly said like that) that is no the situations I was underlaying here.

I really didn't look judgemental and focused on complementing her sweet baby and the food and just alerted her if he for example was falling on someone during his climbing or was on the table because I know that being in a group you have a lot of pressure nowadays to 'control; your child, sometimes its really stressful.

Im just asking what you ladies think is ok and what is not ?

I don't think you are U at all OP.

I am British but live in France, and I would tentatively say aspects of parenting tend to be more permissive in the UK compared to France. Would you agree with that, or not necessarily? The way children are dealt with by teachers at school certainly seems very different in the two countries. I think there are positive and negative outcomes either way.

His behaviour sounds awful but i don't think its nice to say his parents are turning him into a dickhead.

I have also have a friend who I love but I no longer meet up with their child due to his behaviour and their lack of disciplining him.
Personally, I didn't care until it started affecting my child. There was never any disciplining him and it was all 'he's so lively' and 'he's so imaginative!' When he started kicking my child then would blatantly lie about things saying my child had said and fine things that he'd done.
I'm not saying my children are perfect because they are just normal kids. They are given boundaries and are expected to behave.
And no, I'm not smug about that. That's like saying I'm smug because my kids are able to sit and listen to the teacher at school or are able to sit and eat their packed lunch at school. It's behaviour that is expected.

As an aside, I went to a family friendly restaurant in London at 6pm yesterday for a family dinner with dh and dcs and the restaurant was full of well behaved children of all ages.

I am totally with you OP. I have reduced contact with friends for the exact same reason.
When the kids behave appallingly, every time, it is just tedious. We have had this with a neighbour (thankfully they moved abroad), a friend from ante natal class (really liked her but by 3 the child was quite unpleasant to be around and every occasion marred by her tantrums), with a really nice couple who were keen to be friends but were raising their children to be monsters, and with one other family.

In every case I gave it time and chances but when you dread meeting up because of the children's frightful behaviour, there is no future in the friendship.

The good thing is that once you make a space in your social network, the is room for someone lovely. I find that as the children get older it is easier to be more selective e.g. The children they meet at Scouts/Guides tend to come from families with similar values so there is a higher chance that you'll see eye to eye on parenting issues iyswim.

I agree LaQueen. Previous posters seem to insinuate that the Death Stare only works if it implies that a beating will follow.
Not so, I can get the Death Stare (or the Paddington stare) to work on children I have never met.

I teach nursery and, although I know it is very different to parenting, I can get 25 3 year olds to sit and listen to a story.
Not nearly the same as expecting a child to sit still in a restaurant I grant you but it does say to me that they 'they are only 4, what do you expect' doesn't entirely wash.

How can dickhead be poor translation?!?!

Anyway I agree OP that behaviour is shocking. I would be embarrassed to be out in public with them too.

I think it's important to distinguish between crazy off the wall behaviour like climbing fireplaces and totally normal toddler tantrums.

I really don't know how I can teach my 3 year old not to scream and shout and tantrum. I will always remove him from a restaurant for a few minutes if he tantrums but it hasn't stopped him. We went to a wedding yesterday and he screamed because there was no ketchup. I couldn't leave a family wedding so he had a tantrum. We went in the foyer for a bit but if wasn't the kethcup it was something else and I couldn't keep getting up every 5 minutes. Anyway it was an Asian wedding and at those all kids just run around at the back playing and no one bats an eyelid so I'm hoping his screams were not too loud! Not sure what else I could have done

I mean it hasn't stopped him tantrumming the next time. I suppose because he doesn't remember the last time we went and I took him out

Having lived in France I can understand your frustration. Children are much better parented there in terms of manners etc..

Blame the permissive 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's in the UK. A generation of parents who do not know how to parent their children with love but boundaries.

LaQueen - I agree the OP is very articulate which is why I very much doubt that she doesn't know the meaning of dickhead.

Jefferson - its not always obvious which words/expressions are offensive, strong, mild etc. I have the same problem in French, I hear slang words used repeatedly, so try to use them myself and sometimes get raised eyebrows because I used it in an inappropriate context. I referred to our dog as 'un con' because I thought it meant 'a crazy fool' or 'a maniac' or something, turns out it is more like 'fucking idiot' or 'dickhead' and can't be used at all affectionately.

I don't think you're being unreasonable and I speak as someone who has a child (now 18!) with a 'disorder'. He has high functioning autism and adhd and has always had very challenging behaviour, right since he was little. We did lose friends over it as they didn't know how to deal with him; we also avoided people because going out with him was so hard, so we have been quite lonely at times. But for the friends that did remain, we made it clear that we'd like to see them, but that we'd probably have to keep it short because our son wouldn't deal with it well. I hated the idea of my kids being seen as badly behaved, so we would keep visits short, do lots of preparation, and take our son home if things got difficult. I remember being accused by my MIL of being too 'overprotective' and vigilant and I should just let him play - but I knew from experience that if we did that, something would go wrong and it would end in disaster.

My pet hate is people who let their kids run wild, and say, 'oh don't do that ...' and stay sitting down doing nothing to stop them, or distract them. Kids make noise and have tantrums etc, that's normal. But you have to interact with them if you want them to behave and that involves talking to them/distracting them/playing with them - and taking them out of the situation if things don't improve, because it's just about basic respect for the people around you. Life is not just about your kids - its about letting other people enjoy their time out too. Kids need to understand that they're part of a community and not the centre of it - other people matter too.

treadheavily so have I, and in two cases I broke contact altogether, as there was no way to go forward. To reiterate though - what manifested itself as an aversion to spending time with the child, owing to the poor behaviour, was really about the parent's inertia in dealing with it.

I won't put myself or my kids through it. I am not tolerant of it.

I always remember toiling with one such friend in the past, with her dd. The dd had no social skills to speak of and did what she wanted. The mum was nice but a drip. The outings and meet ups revolved around the dd who just did as she pleased unfettered.
Eventually we went out for lunch on one occasion, and the 6 yr old dd got bored and wandered over to other people's tables to stand at the end of it, and stare at them while they ate. The occupants would look pleadingly over at us, feeling awkward to tell her to go away. I was cringing.
The mum "and you know...she's just so sociable!"

That wasn't the worst behaviour I had experienced from her by a long chalk, but it was the proverbial straw, and I knew I was done.
I never saw them again.

Well said Oneway.

In the time I knew her, she always had an outraged story about someone else 'moaning' about her child. I think she genuinely thought she met a lot of grumpy people. It never occurred to her what the common denominator was.

So is it still not ok to say that people with 'different' parenting styles, the kind that allows their children to climb on the tables and ride scooters round in restaurants, are bad parents? Can we not say that?