to feel uncomfortable about my son praying at school?

[KirjavaTheCat]

DS is four and has just started reception. A couple of days ago, we were playing and he said something like "...and then we put our hands together without clapping like this, and shut our eyes and say, 'dear God' and then we say things"

I asked where he learned that and apparently they pray every morning. I find this odd because his class is made up of children from all different religious backgrounds, and it isn't a faith school. Why are they learning to worship?

We're not religious. I don't think I'm comfortable with him praying to 'God' every day. Should I say something? AIBU?

"I am just pointing out that (a) prayer is not compulsory in school (b) children are not conspicuous by not joining in (c) it's a positive message (d) it teaches religious acceptance and tolerance (e) it's part of our culture (g) it's a good life skill to learn to reflect quietly and (h) it only takes a few seconds out of our busy day."

Amazing that all that can be learned in 57 seconds a day! d) is an odd one- what does the fact that the prayers/reflection have to be directed at the Christian God teach Christian children about religious acceptance and tolerance?

All the others apply equally to any quiet contemplation. No need for God to be mentioned.

Amazing that all that can be learned in 57 seconds a day!

Yes, it's a simple yet effective way to learn. Although (a) (b) (e) and (h) are not strictly 'learned' they are just facts.

d) is an odd one- what does the fact that the prayers/reflection have to be directed at the Christian God teach Christian children about religious acceptance and tolerance?

(d) religious acceptance and tolerance - whilst prayers are directed towards the Christian God, reflection isn't (necessarily). So each individual is tolerant of the others and accepts that individuals hold different views.

I would be perfectly happy if DD's teacher said something to the effect of, "We're going to sit quietly for a couple of minutes and think about how grateful we are for all the great things and people in the world" etc. But it's unrealistic to expect 4 year olds to silently think of something different when the majority of the class and the teacher are reciting a Christian prayer.

The argument of, "Your child doesn't have to pray, he or she can just sit quietly" doesn't hold water at this age.

YANBU, although I myself would say I'm a Christian-atheist, I don't think it's right for schools to make children worship to a God they have not been raised to believe in. Didn't realise praying went on in the non-denom schools though- I went to a non-denom all girls state and there was no praying whatsoever!

"(d) religious acceptance and tolerance - whilst prayers are directed towards the Christian God, reflection isn't (necessarily). So each individual is tolerant of the others and accepts that individuals hold different views."

Now you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel. But hey ho. Who cares about other people's views so long as Christians get what they want. That is always how these threads end up. Christians always seem to come out looking either smug, pig headed, selfish or insensitive. Or any combination thereof. Which is a shame, because most of the ones I know aren't.

Actually in our DCs' school they don't say 'let's now pray to a Christian God' hence the children can be praying to any God they want (or none!). I remember DS at 4 coming home and saying they had quiet time to pray/think but he didn't have anything he wanted to think about in particular so he just sat quietly for a little while. I really don't think he's exceptional so I don't think it is that unrealistic to think DCs can sit thinking of something else or nothing regardless of what is going on around them.

Praying threw up some interesting discussions with our DC. It started to make him think about the difference between his body and his spirit/consciousness; what made him 'him' and not his friend iyswim. It was fascinating to see him starting to think about philosophical issues even though he was still teeny.

Kirjava sorry I didn't mean to imply you were deliberately pursuing a political agenda rather than simply sharing your surprise that your DC prayed. The way these threads develop is always pretty similar, however, and I think their agency and number of posts is impacted by external factors (as all threads are).

My dd prayed for a one direction lunch box. She didn't get it so says she now knows god isn't real. Which is fine by me.

At least half of a KS1 class aren't thinking about any God when rattling through the prayers. They're thinking hands together is handy for surreptitious nose picking/staring at their painting on the wall/seeing how loud they can 'pray' before the teacher frowns at them. And a thousand other little things that occupy the minds of small people.

If anyone is trying to indoctrinate primary school children with 57 seconds of prayer a day they are onto a loser.

My 2xds are long since left school and dd attended for a while, they all said prayers only one was at a faith school.
They neither believe or not and all the praying over the years has had no religious impact at all.
Why do people get so het up about it. Your dc will make their own minds up and may surprise you in their decision.

I find it odd that despite the clockwork regularity of such threads appearing on MN, there are still so many people declaring ignorance of the current education system especially when most of them have come through the exact same system

My feelings too. It would be top news story if the law was changed on collective worship in state schools.
Anyone who came through UK system must have had assembly with hymns-when (and why ) do they think it changed?

It is part of the system-in books like 'Please Mrs Butler' by Allan Ahlberg everyone understands it.

I'm sorry - brainwashing? Really? I prayed at school as did every other single person I know. Are any of us brainwashed - er no. We've all grown up and made our own choices regarding religion. Most people I know aren't religious at all despite apparently being 'brainwashed'. What a gross overreaction

The churches would be full to overflowing if it was brainwashing!!
Why do people have so little faith in their children that they have to censure all thinking unless it matches their own?

My parents were truly unbiased about it, where as often on MN you hear parents say 'I want my child to make up their own mind' but there is a subtext of 'but no exposing my child to Christianity as a potential faith, or they might choose wrong'.

I really don't understand the obsession with wanting your children to follow you. Why does it matter? Lots of atheists were brought up in a faith, lots of people of faith were brought up as atheists. We all have free choice.
I believe in God, my children don't. What is the big deal? I had choice, they had choice. It doesn't make any difference to our relationship.

You do need to do something other than moan on MN. An easy thing is to join the secular society who are pressing for change. It can't be changed without an act of Parliament.

Why do people get so het up about it. Your dc will make their own minds up and may surprise you in their decision.

Very true. And I wish someone could tell me why it matters if it doesn't follow mother!

I bet most people on here have different views on lots of things than their parents and the sky hasn't fallen in!

Why do people have so little faith in their children that they have to censure all thinking unless it matches their own

That is a question best directed to the Christians on here. Bear in mind that most of the atheists have said they are fine with R.E lessons where the kids learn about lots of religions.

Our objection is that they be required to worship a god. Note the word worship carefully as there seems to be a selective blindness amongst religious people on this point.

Worship is not the same as learn about. Learn about is not the same as worship.

On the general point of "it's ok to try and force your kids to believe because it probably won't work"

Mine were taught not to get in someone's van even if offered sweets. The fact that they were sensible enough not to doesn't mean it's ok for you to try.

oh and where did this 30 seconds come from. Some schools bring in a priest for a whole sermon.

I don't see how you can force anyone to worship - I doubt mine ever did!

It is just as bad to be rigid if a Christian. You bring them into the world, you bring them up to your beliefs, but when you look at your newborn baby you have no idea what you have! They will make up their own mind.

I don't think collective worship has a place in schools, but you will have to campaign- sitting moaning on MN gets nowhere! This thread will be back next month when someone else wakes up to the fact that don't know anything about the education acts. It comes up with regularity. The responses are the same each time!

I honestly think that people are being deliberately obtuse about this.

Because there is no other explanation for some of the posts people are making.

Unless Christians actually are intolerant and/or smug and/or pig headed and/or selfish. Which the ones I know aren't.

Wow, this thread has gone round in a circles since I've been to work and back - like every other thread on this subject in the history of MN.

As it's AIBU:
The Atheists on here: AIBU to be very happy that my child is being taught religious education and to fully support a school that holds collective reflection time along the lines of "let us all take a moment to think about how we can be kind and polite to each other today" with no God or 'Amens' involved.

The Christians on here (i.e. this thread): YABU, its tradition. Doesn't matter that I can easily provide for my child's Christian up-bring outside of school, I want everyone in my child's class to have to be exposed to it.

• yes I know you can withdraw, but I was a shy child and would have absolutely hated that.
• Fairenuff many people on here have told you that it is often much more than 60 seconds per day in many schools - you haven't responded to the fact that lots of non-church schools have a vicar taking assemblies once a week.
• lots of things used to be tradition in schools: education for boys only, caning, female teachers leaving when they got married. Thankfully, things move on.

Generally in my experience Christian prayers tend to concentrate on good health for family and friends and people in disasters in faraway places, they tend to be a bit of a meditation on people who are less fortunate than themselves.

I am religious, my husband is not, he's probably going to a religious school like me and my husband did. Both of us were perfectly capable of deciding what we believed as adults despite the fact we went to religious school, I believe in it, he doesn't. If the issue comes up and my son tells me he is praying but doesn't believe in God I will tell him that instead of praying to God it is a moment for quiet meditation and reflection about what's important in life, like family and friends, and those who are less fortunate than ourselves and how we can help them. Sorry if that sounds patronizing but I'm just thinking in simple terms you would tell a child.

Could be doing a lot worse than having a short quiet time in a prayer. It will only mean something if he wishes it to mean something at a later date. Meanwhile, I think a little peaceful thought is what this world can do with.

I hope that none of the atheists on here got married in a church or had their child christened

No, why on earth would I ?

Collective worship in school is more than tradition. It is an act of parliament and therefore it needs an act of parliament to remove it. If you don't like it then you need to work with people like the secular society to change it.

I got married in a church. My son is not getting married in a church or having religion as any part of it. If he has children who knows what they will do? But one thing is for sure- they make up their own mind and it is not up to grandparents and parents. Everyone decides for themselves.

HowDyaDo it's interesting to read your interpretation of the thread because from here it reads like:
AIBU to feel uncomfortable about my son praying at school.
Responses: YANBU and you can ask for him to be excused from prayers if it makes you uncomfortable.
Anti-prayers posters: We want no prayers in school because we don't want to have to ask for our DCs to be excused from prayers.
Pro-prayers or/and ambivalent posters: We don't mind that there are prayers in school and since there is always the option of opting out no-one is forced to do anything.
And round and round it goes. The current system seems to suit the majority hence why most DCs take part in collective worship despite the option of opting out and even despite their parents having different faiths or none. We live in a democracy and I'm happy for that principle to extend to collective worship.

My friend had her dd baptised at a Catholic church and has just removed her from nursery after 10 days as she began to recite a prayer at home!
I couldn't understand why she was so angry with the nursery, she knew the faith before she enrolled her.

It has gone around and around for years! A quick search shows MN having threads about it back to 2007 and you can be sure there will be another along next month!
It is understandable if people didn't go to school in UK, but most must have been in assemblies. Perhaps people were in faith schools and think it was different for the rest of us. Maybe they have just forgotten.