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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to feel uncomfortable about my son praying at school?

405 replies

KirjavaTheCat · 20/10/2014 11:53

DS is four and has just started reception. A couple of days ago, we were playing and he said something like "...and then we put our hands together without clapping like this, and shut our eyes and say, 'dear God' and then we say things"

I asked where he learned that and apparently they pray every morning. I find this odd because his class is made up of children from all different religious backgrounds, and it isn't a faith school. Why are they learning to worship?

We're not religious. I don't think I'm comfortable with him praying to 'God' every day. Should I say something? AIBU?

OP posts:
PiperIsOrange · 20/10/2014 23:08

If you do decide to with drawn from RE then that means all the fun things like Christmas plays and Christmas parties in school.

FreudiansSlipper · 20/10/2014 23:12

yes I am open to discussion about religion and about everything else

Hakluyt · 20/10/2014 23:12

"If you do decide to with drawn from RE then that means all the fun things like Christmas plays and Christmas parties in school."

Oh, for fuck's sake, read the thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!'

Fairenuff · 20/10/2014 23:19

You having fun there Hak Grin

catkind · 21/10/2014 00:09

I don't know if anyone's actually listening, but I'd like to try once more to address two main themes that are coming up.

"They don't have to pray."
Fine, when they're 10 and understand that. When they're 4 they don't understand that.

"It doesn't do them any harm."
I say it did me harm. I believed it, because I was a naive little thing, and the teachers said it was true. Or rather, didn't say anything about it being optional. It's the 20 seconds here and there, the grace before meals, the prayer at home time, that do the brainwashing because it's not "here's a thing" it's just matter of fact this is the way the world is.

And if you believe it it doesn't stop at gentle school religion does it? Because you believe it, and you have supportive parents who're letting you make up your own mind, so they take you to the local church where you get the hard stuff. You get convinced that you have to convert your parents or they're going to hell. You see all the church leaders are male, and start to question your value as a female. You read the bible and try to find a way to deal with the old testament horrors. You are told that believing is good and doubting is bad, and you want to be good so you try to quash any questioning in you.

greeneggsandjam · 21/10/2014 00:15

Not all schools do a form of compulsory act of worship every day. My childrens certainly didn't and I wouldn't be impressed if they had. I would be going in to ask about it. How can they possibly expect everyone to be happy about this???

KirjavaTheCat · 21/10/2014 07:16

I don't want him withdrawn from R.E Hmm what would that achieve? My problem isn't with him learning about religion.

His uncle is a Muslim and as a result he knows a fair bit about Islam - however, if his uncle got him his own prayer mat and instructed him to pray with him every day, I wouldn't be happy about that. Because he isn't a Muslim. He's too young to know what religion he may assimilate into one day (or not).

I don't see how instructing him to pray to a Christian god is any different to that scenario. I'm uncomfortable with it. He's not a Christian. He's not even been given enough education for me to be able to say 'well, he may believe in God, so I can't feel uncomfortable about him praying can I?' because he's four and he started school six weeks ago.

OP posts:
KirjavaTheCat · 21/10/2014 07:27

And no I suppose it won't do any 'harm' in the real sense of the word, but neither does Atheists celebrating Christmas and Christians get a right wedgie on for that. Same thing.

OP posts:
niminypiminy · 21/10/2014 07:36

"And no I suppose it won't do any 'harm' in the real sense of the word, but neither does Atheists celebrating Christmas and Christians get a right wedgie on for that. Same thing."

Really? Christians start threads on mn that go on for hundreds of posts about atheists celebrating Christmas? Never seen that. Whereas atheists start threads about their children being 'forced' to pray in primary school at the rate of roughly one a month.

Delphiniumsblue · 21/10/2014 07:39

Goodness knows there you got your religion from catkind- but certainly not a school assembly! I have never ever been told that you go to hell, even in 1950s, as if it is all a cosy little club for signed up members. Even in primary school I understood the Old Testament was an interpretation. Why is doubting bad? Surely everyone has times of doubt?
I bring up children to question everything, starting with me. I never assumed that my teachers were right. I definitely didn't pray at 4yrs- I can remember just putting my hands together and watching everyone.
Of course a 4 yr old isn't a Christian- at that age he us only 'the child of......' And will make up his mind in due course. It is quite useful if his parents are not going to give him the experience of seeing people pray to see it at school.
I would have thought that OP could have used it for interesting discussions at home. It is amazing to hear the views of young children if you give them chance to voice them- rather than saying 'mummy thinks - end of'. Has he been asked if he is uncomfortable about it?

Delphiniumsblue · 21/10/2014 07:43

Anyone can and do celebrate Christmas- it has a long history before Christianity. It is perfectly possible to have a secular one. My DHs work colleague is Jewish, his family just have Christmas as an extra celebration- a sensible decision seeing as the country closes down.

Delphiniumsblue · 21/10/2014 07:47

I should speak to the Head greeneggsandhsm, if they happen to be in a state school in England- you might be surprised. I am not sure how the Head gets around it if he/she doesn't. It is the law. Even if they have good reason (80% Muslim etc ) there is a lengthy procedure to go through- you can't just stop.
I would have assumed my children didn't have collective worship had I just gone on what they talked about.

Delphiniumsblue · 21/10/2014 07:48

They just assume that everyone knows greeneggsandhsm - it is all set out out in 1998 Education Act.

CarryOn90 · 21/10/2014 07:51

OP sorry I haven't read the thread but basically YANBU to not want your son to be subjected to systematic brainwashing

I'm sure you would like him to make up his own mind about whether there is an invisible man watching him when he is older, but that's the whole point. He is actively being prevented from making up his own mind.

hackmum · 21/10/2014 07:53

A lot of people have mentioned that the law requires a daily act of worship in schools.

But it's a law more honoured in the breach than the observance. Lots of schools (including both the primary and secondary school my DD attended) ignore it completely, although they do have occasional religious services for particular occasions.

ViviPru · 21/10/2014 07:56

I definitely didn't pray at 4yrs- I can remember just putting my hands together and watching everyone. Me too.

I distinctly remember being 5 years old at school and hearing bible stories, singing hymns and participating in group prayer and thinking "this is nice but really, what a load of nonsense". I swear this is not me as a 30 year old projecting onto my younger self. I honestly had those feelings.

I think it was because by that age I'd had a good grounding in scientific theories. My Mum had loathed her Catholic education and perhaps was more vigilant than some in ensuring we were never 'brainwashed' (although she was careful not to be too overzealous with her own views until we were much older), we were merely given the facts and allowed to choose for ourselves what to live by.

Its a confidence thing too. Even today, my vehemently atheist DH (far more so than I) will say the Lords Prayer at weddings etc while I will stand in respectful silence. His upbringing means he is reluctant to be singled out or anxious not to do the 'wrong' thing publicly. That and I think he likes the challenge of remembering every word, competitive little sod that he is.

All that said, I'm uncomfortable with it being enforced/opt out in schools. Sooner all of that is obsolete the better IMO.

CarryOn90 · 21/10/2014 08:01

Vivi you're not alone - I also distinctly remember hearing bible stories at Sunday school, and the realisation that they were supposed to be true

Delphiniumsblue · 21/10/2014 08:02

It depends in the Head, Hackmum, and their interpretation of the law.
I definitely thought for myself at 5 yrs, ViviPru. I encouraged my children to do the same.
Much healthier than CarryOn90 who has already decided for her children and doesn't trust them to think for themselves. I think she is one if those who says he can make up his own mind- the subtext being 'as long as he makes it up the 'right' way'.

SixImpossible · 21/10/2014 08:02

Our primary handles this well, I feel. The 'daily act of worship of a broadly Christian nature' is incorporated in the HT's thoughts for the day/week. In assembly she might say something along the lines of "I'd like you to think about how we can be kind to each other, or grateful for XYZ, etc", and then pause for a few moments.

The thought for the week gets posted on classroom noticeboards and in the lobby. It might give thanks for something seasonaly appropriate, or be a request for help in achieving something, etc. Occasionally a more thoughtful child will ask to whom this thanks or request is addressed. The teachers generally respond with "who do you think?", and the the child's response is either accepted (God/Mummy/Mrs Green/Wolverine) or used as a jumping-off point for further discussion.

They have the occasional overt Christian act of pworship, eg Harvest in a church, from which some children are withdrawn, as well as other events that most of us would not see as worship, from which some children are withdrawn, eg JW children from Birthday Assemblies. As far as I can tell, the withdrawn children have no alternative provision, but enjoy helping the TAs/reading/doing extra support work in maths or FMS (what I do as a volunteer).

I think it's an excellent and pluralist-society-friendly interpretation of the govt's requirements.

For full-disclosure: I'm a member of a non-Christian religion, an assimilated person of faith, who believes that religion should be taught in a diverse way at school, but not as a practice. Unless, of course, you choose to send your child to an overtly religious (maintained?) school.

SixImpossible · 21/10/2014 08:08

Also believe that children should learn about atheism, agnosticism, and Humanism along with the 'major faiths'.

CarryOn90 · 21/10/2014 08:12

Delphinium this is not the case. When I was little my dad took me to churches, and also mosques and synagogues (neither parent religious, went to Sunday school to get into local school). We learned about the bible, and other religions and holy texts. I plan to do the same for my kids when I have them.
The difference is, like my dad, I won't point at any of of them and say to my kids "You will behave/dress/eat/marry this way, and believe this - simply because I do." I don't think that's fair. If they choose to adopt a faith I won't stand in their way.

But very, very few children make up their mind that there is a God and they must follow certain rules all by themselves. It's quite rare they arrive at that conclusion without considerable help. Such as "praying" at the age of 4.

CarryOn90 · 21/10/2014 08:13

The whole point is I do (or will) trust them to think for themselves. If religious families trusted their kids to come to the right conclusion alone there wouldn't be any need for weekly sermons, preaching and threats of hell/sinning.

Delphiniumsblue · 21/10/2014 08:37

They don't make up their minds at 4 yrs but whether people have faith or not as adults has nothing to do with parents. (Unless you are born into a fanatical family where you have to cut yourself off). We get to choose for ourselves and not anyone else.
I wonder if anyone has actually been in a school assembly these days if they think sin and hell comes into it!

Delphiniumsblue · 21/10/2014 08:38

It is hardly a sermon or preaching either- even if the local vicar is in.

Delphiniumsblue · 21/10/2014 08:39

And not all of it is Christian. If you read 1998 Education Act it tells you how much has to be Christian.