To not know how to explain to DSs why women wear a niqab?

[MrsJamin]

I live in a really diverse area - we've often seen women wearing a niqab on the school run and today I wondered what I would say if DS1 or 2 asked why they were wearing one. I honestly don't know what I should say or how I could explain it. They're 4 and 6. A good idea is welcome as I don't know.

Why not issue blindfolds for men?

Lets face it, its about power and subjugation and nothing to do with fearing being too alluring.

what are the rape and sexual harassment figs for these countries.,

Men rape and attack whatever women wear if they are pre disposed that way.

Of course I am against anyone being forced to do anything - whether it is by a husband, mother, brother or anyone.

But I don't think it is OK for those women who have made a conscious choice to wear a niqab in a free country (the UK) to have their choice dismissed and belittled just because other women don't believe it can possibly be a free choice and, therefore, that they must be oppressed or foolish.

I find this very arrogant.

That's all.

who are so secure in their own narrow beliefs

I have the same problem with women covering their heads for religious reasons as I do with my mother attending a Catholic Church, it's not about race or religion, it's about a lack of equality.

Women were imprisoned and died in this and other countries for equality and this flies in the face of it. I would explain that they do it for religious reasons and carry on the conversation from there.

And by the same token, you're putting words into our mouths, solo. I didn't set out to belittle other women's choices, because they're made in a complicated social and religious context of upbringing, being on the receiving end of racism from the majority community against which (as one Muslim poster has patiently explained) choosing to wear a niqab may for some be a political act, and many other factors.

But I still have the right (because freedom of expression cuts both ways) to point out that their choices might have consequences beyond the ones they immediately intended. In the case of the niqab, that's clearly that using the freedom afforded to you in a western democracy (France aside) to wear what you want has the knock on effect of legitimising a cultural system which oppresses many women, and forces women into wearing that garment in situations where they don't want to (see Peacock's excellent link upthread). That's not arrogant, that's offering a critique of their actions and the consequences of those actions.

I never had to explain this to my children (we don't live in a multicultural area) ,but if they had ever asked I would have just explained it was their choice to wear those clothes. I don't see why women's clothes should be such an issue really. No one seems to discuss men's clothing in the same way.
Personally I chose not to explain or discuss religion or any form of belief in deities to my children, so I wouldn't have gone into any more detail than that.

Sorry fragolino I don't want to upset anyone but that's how I feel about the way that a number of people are expressing themselves here. A thread like this should be an opportunity to hear the opinions of Muslim women and to try to understand them, as women, as mothers, as fellow human beings.

It's not possible to understand other people unless you try to be open-minded.

I do understand a lot of the views. I have, however, spent lots of time living and working in Muslim countries and with Muslim women in the UK and I know that a lot of the opinions which I have heard from strong, confident Muslim women, turned a lot of the things which I thought I knew about Islam and about feminism on their head.

I genuinely don't understand how people can be so sure that they are right about things that they aren't prepared to leave room for others to have their own opinions and make their own choices.

After all, we are not talking about someone planting a bomb or attacking someone else. We're talking about a woman making a personal choice about what she chooses to wear.

Yes but the OP is about explaining to a child why they might be doing it. You can respect the fact that they have made a choice – I would never abuse or belittle a woman for wearing a niqab, I think it's important that she has that freedom –while at the same time thinking her reasons for doing it may be based on a sexist or misogynist culture that I think should be understood and questioned, and that I don't think is right.

My reasons for thinking that are not anti-Islamic, xenophobic, or any such thing. They are based on the fact that niqab-wearing (and similar) is for women and not for men, and I can't see any sensible, practical reason why that should be. For example, some things are just for one gender for a reason, like maternity wear is just for women, for a reason. That doesn't apply to niqabs or the reasoning behind them.

Feminism is not about choice. That's a meaningless thing to say, you might as well say "socialism is about choice". Everyone has choices, and yes gender equality may lead to more choices, but that's not what it's about. Feminism is about equality and equal rights and equal treatment. So it's entirely reasonable to suppose that niqab-wearing is the result of sexist values.

Lurcio of course you have a right to your opinion and what you have just said is interesting and thoughtful.

I thought that what you wrote before about feminism and choice was patronising, but maybe you genuinely misunderstood what I had said.

There are certainly a number of posters on here who have completely dismissed the choice that Muslim women have made as being foolish, oppressed or just wrong.

I guess if the cap fits wear it, if not don't.

I syppose for me so much of religion is bound up in power and control over women's actions and bodies that I am sceptical that a woman who suddenly makes the decision to uncover wouldn't be seen as an outcast or worse in her community.

Just like society here used to treat in married mothers.

Okay, here's my go at explaining what's particularly peculiar about the niqab. Spacestation uses the example of maternity wear, but actually our culture does endorse gender differences in clothing and I'm happy to admit that I've internalised those arbitrary gender differences. When I go to a public swimming pool, I (as a woman) cover both my genitals and my chest, while a man only covers the latter. And I've internalised that sense of modesty to the extent that were I to go to Finland and be invited by friends to attend a mixed sauna, I would decline because I wouldn't be comfortable being naked with men I was not in an intimate relationship with. So I can make the imaginative leap to seeing that for a Muslim woman, the hijab, or indeed jilbab might be the same - that I just would not feel comfortable with my hair, or legs, or arms on display (and it's not a package deal - I know Muslim women who cover their hair but are happy to wear knee length skirts and opaque tights).

However, I pointed out upthread that there is every indication that in traditionally Islamic societies like Iraq and Afghanistan, men expect to be able to see each other's faces for exactly the same reasons - non verbal communication, inferring things about attitude, sincerity and the like - as in the west, to the extent that British soldiers serving there are advised to remove sunglasses when talking to people. And yet women, using the spurious excuse of "modesty" are cut off from this very fundamental form of human interaction - being able to engage in social intercourse in a manner which allows the person you're talking to to read things from your face. And I cannot make the imaginative leap here to "it's just about arbitrary cultural decisions about modesty and the private versus the public" that I can with the hijab. In the case of the niqab I find it impossible to interpret it other than as a systematic method of dehumanising women.

Former, dammit, former. (Sorry if everyone now has an unfortunate image of swimming pools filled with men modestly wearing t-shirts while letting their bits dangle). Oh for an edit function.

I suppose the easiest way of explaining to a child would be to show them photos from 50 or 60 years ago and point out that nearly all men wore a hat of some sort and women wore scarfs. It was almost a culture for us , a way of life.
Just explain that some cultures want to keep their traditions more than others.

Yes Lurcio that's exactly how I see it too.

I see the total covering of a woman's body and face as completely de huminising and specifically designed to cut her off as an individual person.

Absolutely not empowering.

Crinolines and bustles were equally as restrictive if not as excluding to general society.

One reason a lot of muslims like to live in the UK is we have freedom of expression. That works both ways. We can say covering up in Islam (or the Jewish religion) is very sexist. if muslims or jews don't like our saying that or our saying that it is sexist for women must cover whilst men are ever are left free as birds then there are countries where there is no freedom of speech to say such things. We are one of the most tolerant countries in the world in the UK but the price you pay for being here is that people will strongly oppose your views. France has banned the full burka in public. We don't do that here but we reserve the right to make it clear to women who cover that they are being taken for a massive ride and need to think carefully about why they want to do this - it is not required by Islam.

I have never been fully covered but I have dressed appropriately for business in Iran and to a lesser extent in Dubai. It was not feminist in the slightest. I thought it might be freeing but it was absolutely awful. A huge load of cloth over your head and ears. You can't hear so well. You ave totally constricted. It's harder to run around. You cannot see in the same ways at the side. I will always remember the vision across a Kish Island beach of women head to toe in black and men in speedos. It sums it all up - sexist to the core.

The sooner the planet is atheist and feminist the better. Those female kurdish fighters are brilliant. No heads covered. Excellent at guns. Apparently the IS men they kill believe if they are killed by a woman in battle they lose all the women they think they will be given in a non existent heaven. We need more women like that in the Middle East.

Just explain that some cultures want to keep their traditions more than others.
And that will be the weak sauce explanation. And very cultural relativism. Meh, it could hold for a 5 yo...

Oh dear. This has turned into another thread of complaining about Muslims.

I don't agree with the niqab, but really if you don't like women in niqab or Muslims, ignore. What wonderfully easy lives you all must have that you can dedicate so much time, energy and anger into worrying about how others choose to live their lives when it doesn't affect you in the slightest.

And you all must be so perfect too with absolutely nothing that needs changing in how you live your lives.

Mexican, should we only pay attention to issues that affect us directly? Isn't that a rather insular way to live.

mexican

What a shame that you so obviously have wased in and commented in a thread that you clearky havnt read.

If you dare to accuse me of writing anti Muslim posts i will report your posts.

Disgraceful comments.

And I'll say it again, I don't have a problem with Muslims (or not more than I do with religion in general), I have a problem with inequality. As has been pointed out, this isn't an Islamic requirement, but a cultural issue, sometimes associated with Islam or enforced in the name of Islam.

And it does affect me. Every time a woman (or man) does something that perpetuates unnecessary sexism, it affects everyone, because it sends out that message for other people to see.

Greengrow is right. Freedom to wear it, freedom to not wear it, and freedom to talk about it and point out that it is sexist. I'll defend all those freedoms, but not just some of them.

And read the thread Mexican. I among others have talked about the horrendous sexism that also affects our lives in the west. Nowhere is immune from it. Bloody loads needs changing and I didn't suggest otherwise.

It's a very lazy way to live your life and exceedingly selfish to only regard yourself.

I could understand the angst if Amazonian tribes people wanted to settle here and keep their traditional dress code,I.e piss all apart from a strategically placed leaf. We'd deem that to be immodest and would be difficult to explain to a child if a bloke was going upstairs on the bus with his spuds hanging down.
We all have different ideas of what is seen as appropriate dress code.

this inequality because a women makes a choice to cover up is seeing things through western eyes

maybe read a little of what muslim feminists have to say about the issue of the niqab there are different opinions, as there are with feminists in the west but they are not coming from the same place as we are and do not always view our way as being the right way or something to they aspire too

too many feminists are patronizing towards muslim women, I thought we were meant to listen to what other women opinions are and support their choices in having freedom to choose(show empathy), try and understand not talk down to them as if they know no better

I'll reserve the right to question what's going on any time a woman feels she needs to do something that a man doesn't have to do (biology aside). That's not patronising - I think it would be more patronising to say "aww, it's their culture, so I'll allow for the sexism because they don't know any better."