To not know how to explain to DSs why women wear a niqab?

[MrsJamin]

I live in a really diverse area - we've often seen women wearing a niqab on the school run and today I wondered what I would say if DS1 or 2 asked why they were wearing one. I honestly don't know what I should say or how I could explain it. They're 4 and 6. A good idea is welcome as I don't know.

Islam treats men and women as equal, and if anything, the woman has the higher status because of her role as a mother. The Qur'an states this over and over. For instance, the mother is seen as "3 times" more important than the father.

Please don't confuse religion and culture. And don't forget that there are many cultures, and everyone seems obsessed with Iran, Iraq and Saudi Arabia. What about the Muslim countries like Turkey, Indonesia, Bangladesh? Lots of cultures, lots of differing practices.

Also can I point out that wearing a niqab is feminism at it's strongest? It's saying no man can judge me based on my looks, but judge me on my personality, my intelligence, my wit. If they dress up, it's for them not for a man. In the western world, there is so much pressure on women to look good, to be scantily dressed to impress their men, how is that equality?

Mrs Oom, so why cant girls ansa the door, look at males in the eye? Have their beds checked for when they start period and so on?

Do women get promised 77 young nubile men on death?

Also can I point out that wearing a niqab is feminism at it's strongest?

I am sorry but when I see a lady wearing one and the man with her, I see him leading her round on all fours with a collar on.

Also can I point out that wearing a niqab is feminism at it's strongest? It's saying no man can judge me based on my looks, but judge me on my personality, my intelligence, my wit. If they dress up, it's for them not for a man. In the western world, there is so much pressure on women to look good, to be scantily dressed to impress their men, how is that equality?

It is not in my definition of feminism and I would never explain it that way to my daughters. If men judge me by my looks, that is their problem. It is not my job to cover my face so they can't judge - it should be up to them to read the Qur'an and have more respect for women. It is also pretty insulting to most men. My husband doesn't judge women by their looks (although he certainly has an interest in mine, same as I have in his) just as I don't judge men by their looks.

When a religion is strongly associated with a particular culture, then that religion should start asking itself some hard questions (catholicism and clergy child sex abuse for example).

As a matter of interest, does mainstream Islam in the UK, for example, condemn the way women are regulated in places like Saudi and teach that this is contrary to the Qur'an?

I've found this thread really interesting.

What alarms me is the people complaining of racist comments.
I haven't seen much racism, perhaps ignorance, and definitely questioning.

Are we really in a position where it is unacceptable to ask questions to further our knowledge?

Is anyone else drawing the parallel to the awful child abuse in Rotherham? Where no one was 'allowed' to point out the abusers & victims were from distinct and different cultural groups.

Well I think that is appalling quite frankly. I think it's a good thing to debate stuff like this. I don't agree with everyone, I'm ok with that. I don't think they have to agree with me.

But a genuine desire to understand more about a culture you don't know much about is surely a good thing.

I'm from Northern Ireland. And as such I have direct experience of religion/ culture affecting people lives that the majority of white British people have no clue about. In NI you have to figure out someone's name, school they went to, or where they live, or how they pronounce words to figure out their culture.

What this thread has been about is a very easily visible cultural difference.

My children are atheists and feminists and they will know about the problems women face in all religions.

I suppose we could say men from the Middle East have problems controlling themselves sexually so instead of shutting themselves up at home and letting their women work they think it's a good idea to curtail women in dress and life in a way that breaches women's rights and some foolish women are taken in by that rather than supporting Islamic femininst groups.

Where no one was 'allowed' to point out the abusers & victims were from distinct and different cultural groups. If anyone saw the program about that Rotherham case, you would have seen the ladies from a charity that supports violence within Muslim marriages saying, an abuser outside the marriage is likely to abusing within too.

Those women are less able to speak out, they are caught in a huge web. they suffer too.

Aah. It's "feminism at its strongest" to assume a man is such a hormonally driven animal, that I cover myself up to talk to him, so that he can free himself of his inability to relate to women other than via sez crazed eyes.

Crazy logic that is no logic at all.

Depressing.

Justifying oppressing yourself by assuming men are so low level.

Greengrow that is an unbelievably arrogant view. There are Muslim women on this thread who have tried to explain their views and choices and you are just dismissing them as 'foolish' because you don't agree with their choices.

Some Islamic feminist groups campaign for the right to wear the veil or the niqab in countries where they are not allowed to.

Some feminist groups here campaign for prostitution to be legalised.

You don't have to agree with them, but to dismiss their choices as 'foolish' is very patronising.

I think there is a lot of blinkered arrogance on this thread from people who cannot see that their own views are shaped by the culture in which they have grown up as much as the women who wear niqabs.

Wearing a niqab is as far from being feminist as it's possible to be. Most women in the west do not wear scanty clothing, this is a red herring. Some women, usually young, wear scanty clothing in appropriate settings ie pub, nightclub, sunny park or wherever.

My scanty days are long behind me, and I always dressed 'modestly' for work and school.

Look around in the UK, do you really see a sea of miniskirted women tottering about on heels? It's just that those women draw the eye more.

Muslims such as Dr Taj Hargey, the imam of the Oxford Islamic Congregation, have spoken out forcefully against the spread of the burka and the entrenchment of Wahhabism – the Saudi-influenced, misogynist variety of Islam – in the UK. I suppose Dr Hargey cannot comprehend why many other British citizens are so complacent. He seems to understand the oldest lesson of fundamentalism, across all centuries, countries and religions: that it never knows where to stop

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10324722/Lets-not-go-wobbly-over-the-veil.html

Greengrow nailed it for me.

gerengrow

I think there was some campaign recently asking women what they wore when they were raped or sexually assaulted and I know its not a huge study but the responses were so sad, and few women were wearing scanty clothing.

Step door I'm hardly going to say where I live am I!
But believe me the next town has a 99% Muslim occupancy .

It's wonderful that so many of you think you are such perfect feminists and so right about everything in life that you don't even need to tell your DC that there are different points of view out there.

I too would consider myself a feminist and certainly bring my DD up with that attitude. However, I would also like to think that we are both thoughtful people who listen to other peoples opinions and respect their beliefs.

For me feminism is about choice. I don't have to like other women's choices but I do believe that they all have the right to make those choices and not be told that in doing so they are foolish or wrong, simply because I don't agree with them.

solosolong "For me feminism is about choice".

You are conflating what feminism is with one of the end results of successful feminist campaigning. Yes, if feminism is getting anywhere in changing the world, then women will have more choices than they had before (voting, training as doctors, earning an equal wage, etc.) But that does not mean that every single choice made by every single individual is a feminist choice. Some may be neutral (my choice this lunchtime to have lasagne rather than a baked potato). Some may actively be anti-feminist (putting up selfies on the internet of oneself holding badly hand-written signs saying "I am not a feminist because...").

Also can I point out that wearing a niqab is feminism at it's strongest? It's saying no man can judge me based on my looks, but judge me on my personality, my intelligence, my wit.

If they are wearing a niqab how many men are they interacting with? How is a man going to judge on personality when interaction between women and men outside the family is frowned upon?

I don't think I am a perfect anything but I do think it is my responsibility as a parent to pass on my points of view on important matters - not everyone else's in the world. So, for example, my children understand that some people believe homosexuality is wrong but in our family we do not believe that and in fact think that is a wrong attitude.

I wouldn't stop anyone wearing the veil if that is what they want to do but why on earth would I tell my children that is a good choice to cover your face when I don't think it is?

For me, feminism is not about choice. It is about being treated equally.

Choice feminism is a cop out. That's just saying that anything a woman does is great because, feminism.

Women do plenty of stuff that isn't great. Or feminist.

For me feminism is about choice
There was a programme on a few days ago about men with multiple wives. One of the men bought his new bride a niqab (it wasn't something she already wore) he said he wouldn't make her wear it but there would be problems between them if she wouldn't. So yes she had a choice, the choice was wear it or have problems with your husband, not much of a choice in my eyes.

I really hope that posters like sosoling don't feel they are being belittled or attacked here. That certainly isn't my intention.

Personally I cannot for the life of me see covering up a femaie child/woman as anything other than sad. I equate it to Saudi Arabia banning womem driving.

It's a religious/cultural control of women that is widespread in all religions to a greater or lesser degree and I simply cannot understand any woman wearing a burka by choice.

I also can't understand a woman stripping off for page 3.

Both at to me totally against the general empowerment of women world wide.

However individuals have that right as others have the right not to.

There is nothing in the Koran about wearing a niqab, hijab, burqa, or abaya.

All the Koran says it that men and women should dress modestly.

I live in the middle east in an Islamic country. I wear an abaya whenever I am in public. During the day I also wear a hijab and a niqab to protect my skin from the heat. I am not a Muslim, but I have very fair skin which I feel the need to protect from the heat and sand. If I go out at night then I just wear my abaya. When I am back in the UK I wear western clothes.

I find it sad and depressing to see women covering so much of their bodies, particularly in Britain, where they are probably depriving themselves of vitamin D and risking illness. It is a backlash against women and it is against everything I hold dear.

Why not issue blindfolds for men? Or only allow them to go outdoors during certain hours when it suits women not be out and about?

And I would object to having to deal with anyone whose facial features were covered up as much of interaction and communication is conveyed via facial expression.

I find it sad and depressing that so many people think it is ok to impose their own personal choices on others. That's what I find to be against everything I hold dear.

If you could all actually read what I wrote it might help.

Lurcio - I did not say that all choices are feminist choices. I said that all women have the right to make their own choices. Not the same thing at all. What patronising rubbish!

Morris - I also did not say that anything a woman does is great

Canyouforgive - by all means pass on your opinions but why not also teach your children that there are other opinions and/ or choices out there in the world, not necessarily good ones. Personally I trust that my DD will learn from my example and the experiences she has in her life and make her own mind up about things. I would much rather she does that than swallow mine wholesale. I was lucky enough to have a mum who did the same for me, and we certainly don't agree on everything in life.

My objection here is to the fact that there are women on the thread giving their own opinions and other people - like you - dismissing them because you believe that their choices are wrong.

Personally, I would much rather hear from those who have made the choice to wear a niqab themselves or who know people who have made that choice, than from people who are so secure in their own narrow beliefs that they are only interested in dismissing others as wrong or foolish.

Oh here we go with the concern for muslim women and their vitamin D levels