To not know how to explain to DSs why women wear a niqab?

[MrsJamin]

I live in a really diverse area - we've often seen women wearing a niqab on the school run and today I wondered what I would say if DS1 or 2 asked why they were wearing one. I honestly don't know what I should say or how I could explain it. They're 4 and 6. A good idea is welcome as I don't know.

Can we please stop with the ridiculous statements about 'women in the west wear heels and make up' or 'are forced to dress provocatively by their men'. It's just not true. Lots of women don't wear high heels or make up or dress provocatively.

Would this help - Explaining to them that within Islam it makes reference to women (and men!) dressing modestly, and this is interpreted in different ways. e.g like school uniform some wear blazers and ties others polo tops. Every school wants their kids to look smart but each has their own take on it?

I have worked in middle east and have heard all the reasons, from
'its my choice' to
'its my religion' to
'I don't have to wear it but would insult my family' and finally
'slut shaming' of women by other women and men for not wearing it.

Mexican Springtime- why waste your time posting on here then? You're wrong, by the way.

maybe if you feel you reserve the right to question you should actually listen and hear what many woman who make this choice have to say on the matter

google is your friend if you are really that interested

The question I could never answer is "I don't wear the veil. Does that mean they think I am not modest? Do they think you are not modest?"

I actually don't know the answer. Much of the discussion I read is ppl saying that hyper sexualised western pop stars and five year olds in bikinis are not nice. I agree with that myself, actually. But what about a frumpy 50-something woman or her 20 year old DD in jeans and a sweatshirt going off to work- does a woman wearing full Islamic dress think we are less modest than she is? Des her husband think that? I have often wondered.

Ok why don't men cover their bodies then to preserve their modesty.

Women ogle and have sexual thoughts.

Why did I see a covered woman and girls walking alongside a man and boys in shorts, t shirts and flip flops. On a boiling hot day.

How is that equal? How is that empowering?

I am asking a question and not trying to be either patronising or rude.

I have questions for all religions by by the way but we are discussing covering here.

how is it equal

why is the way someone is dressed about equality, men are meant to dress modestly they may choose not to

for them maybe they feel empowered by not showing their body and sometimes face as people will judge them hopefully for the person they are not what they look like

and really should we be judging someone by how they are dressed, we are quick to kick up a fuss (rightly so) if a man claims a women looks easy because she is wearing a low cut top

We are one of the most tolerant countries in the world in the UK but the price you pay for being here is that people will strongly oppose your views

Superb comment, which for me sums up the whole issue

Unfortunately, the problems seem to start when anyone expects to enjoy the tolerance without the rest of it ...

Actaully, FreudiansSlipper , please do not use muslim feminists to defend the face covering. That's absolutely dishonest and insulting to them. They do not support it at all. Some want the veil gone, some think the veil is a perfectly legitimate way to express an identity (and why not, really?)
But they are almost pretty unanimous against the face covering.

I thought there had been a change

not in the support of women having to wear a veil but having the choice to be able to with the increase in support of muslim identity. in countries where the veil was banned there has been a lot of pressure to having this ban lifted so a choice can be made

I know some are in support to fully ban it

FreudiansSlipper you are saying many of the same things I was saying earlier. Unfortunately, as you pointed out, many people here think it is fine to dismiss the views of Muslim women since they are clearly oppressed, foolish and wrong.

Nothing justifies covering your face in public. Nothing.

Man or woman.

But of course as religions are all about control and power it's obviously the men who get to choose and of course none of them choose to do they.

I suppose, going back to the OP, you can either use the fact that someone is dressed differently from you, as a way to introduce your DC to the idea that people do have different beliefs and make different choices in life, or you can use it to point out how your opinions are so much better than those of the person in question.

I know which I do.

Freudiansslipper - just so I'm clear about what you're talking about: my understanding was that "the veil" was synonymous with the hijab, i.e. covering one's hair but leaving the face uncovered, not the niqab, which covers the face except for the eyes. Could you clarify whether you're talking about the hijab or the niqab when you say Muslim feminists have campaigned to have bans lifted.

FWIW, I think that the niqab is an instrument of female oppression for the grounds I've given upthread, but I also think that the French are completely wrong to ban it (for reasons of civil liberty). I do not see these two beliefs on my part as being contradictory.

I think it's the views of religious teachings exclusivity written by men and for men they we actually dismissing and questioning here.

No one I have read here has called Muslim women foolish or wrong.

i have noticed over time less and less posts on these threads are from posters that are muslim

maybe they have left this sight or maybe they get fed up of the same old argument

Solosolong - do you have this laissez faire attitude to all aspects of parenting? That your job is simply to act as detached observer of the world, commenting from somewhere above the fray on the rich variety of human life? Or are there some things where you think that actually, your moral position is the correct one, and you'd rather like to pass those values on to your children?

And do you think that having negative attitudes about the niqab is solely the preserve of white liberals? I had an interesting chat with one of my dad's Muslim friends. She showed me a photo of her daughter and daughter's friend and (not wanting to make the assumption that just because she didn't wear a hijab, her daughter wouldn't either - for precisely the reasons about "it's an individual woman's choice" outlined already) I asked which of the two young women was her daughter. She was quite shocked and said "my daughter doesn't wear a veil" in a tone of voice that left me in no doubt that she thought wearing one was undesirable.

solosong

Of course we all teach our children to hopefully be tolerant and accepting to individuals but I could no sooner teach my children that women covering their bodies because they are women is right or support it anymore than I could defend homophobia or inequality or page 3.

Freudian I hope not and would say it's a debate not an argument .

So it very definitely is a question worth asking as to why, if it is important in men's interactions with one another in this culture, that the face be visible, women's faces are expected to be hidden.

Because for that particular culture (and others, like Saudi), women aren't considered to be people.

However you may be right as no religion encourages debate or reflection. It's not to question or query but blind belief. That's what all religions are about.

sorry i meant niqab

there is support for women to have that choice

there are countries that though muslim countries to be seen as too religious (not western enough) was a problem

men and women want the right to practise religion to the extent that they wish too like we can here that is all they want. i am aware many young women are making the choice to wear a niqab and for a number of different reasons. i have friends and ex family in north africa, some in france and asia nearly all the young women are making the choice to wear a headscarf and some a niqab something that was unheard of 20 years ago. all university educated young women

having that choice is what is important they feel empowered as i do being able to vote, drive, having choices that older generations did not have. i can not really identify with having a religious empowerment as i am an atheist

I saw a thing on the BBC earlier which made me think of this thread:

the female football fan causing outrage is saudi arabia

I think for me anyway my discomfort with seeing veiled women is twofold:

1. It is for me inextricably linked with the attitudes shown in this link
2. Covering the face is a huge cultural no-no which runs very deep

Like it or not, there are countries / areas where women and girls are forced to cover and these countries have poisonous attitudes towards females. You just can't get away from that.

The idea that people who have a bad reaction to seeing veiled women have no problems with western culture is untrue - I for one have a lot of problems with western cultures. Ditto it being about Islam - I react in the same way to aspects / sects of other religions where misogynist attitudes are practiced.

Lots of women don't wear high heels or make up or dress provocatively.

Lots of Muslim women don't wear hijabs. What's your point?

And do you think that having negative attitudes about the niqab is solely the preserve of white liberals?

Of course its not the preserve of white liberals!

Dr Taj Haregy, wants equality within the Muslim faith.

Unlike most British imams who insist on segregation during Friday prayers, Dr Hargey allows men and women to pray in the same room. He believes Muslims should not feel compelled to grow beards or wear a veil and last November his mosque became the first in Britain to allow a female Islamic scholar to lead Friday prayers.

Dr Hargey, a devout Sunni Muslim who freely left Cape Town to teach in the UK, said yesterday: "This is a watershed moment in the struggle between liberal Muslims in the UK and the extremist views ... [of] a foreign-educated clergy. Progressives like me are described as heretics in order to ruin our credibility. It's a form of Muslim McCarthyism that is used to root out anyone who dares question these unenlightened, tribal and foreign forms of Islam.

What makes Dr Hargey so unusual and controversial is his determination to confront British Islam's view of the role of women. "We need to create an indigenous British Islam that is integrated into its own environment. It should stay true to Koranic teachings but is also erudite, egalitarian and enlightened."

When Dr Hargey invited Amina Wadud to lead prayers at his mosque, it was mostly women in full veils who objected outside. "It was like women protesting against Emily Pankhurst chaining herself to the railings," he says. "Muslim women are being brainwashed by men into adopting customs that are not a religious requirement. Islam is not about superficial tokens. When I see women adopting the niqab [full face veil] I want to tell them that the niqab isn't mentioned in the Koran. Nor are veils. The only thing the Koran says is to dress modestly."

It was like women protesting about Emily Pankhurst chaining herself to the railings.