To not know how to explain to DSs why women wear a niqab?

[MrsJamin]

I live in a really diverse area - we've often seen women wearing a niqab on the school run and today I wondered what I would say if DS1 or 2 asked why they were wearing one. I honestly don't know what I should say or how I could explain it. They're 4 and 6. A good idea is welcome as I don't know.

I had this on the weekend actually, were in an area where lots of women wear a hijab or a niqab. I actively pointed them out to ds(4) told him what they were wearing and that they were Muslims and some Muslim women don't want other people to see their hair and some don't want others to see their faces. It ask depends on the age of the child, obviously but that sufficed for him.

My dds asked me this on a boiling hot packed train.

My answer' because they choose to.'

They asked 'aren't they hot?'

My answer 'well yes probably.'

They said, 'but why would they choose to wear coats and big scarfs in the summer?'

My answer 'I honestly don't know.'

No point lying because I don't. I didn't want to get into the dressing modestly thing with my dds as it's so insulting to both men and women.

It's a difficult thing to explain sensibly because there is,for our family, no sense in any religion or religious practises but it's personal choice and it's their right to dress how they choose as should be everyone's.

My DS asked that very same question. It's not the same as rosary beads etc which nobody would notice. I said the truth, which is that I don't know.

I've never had a straight answer on here or from anywhere else as to why a religion requires or encourages its female followers to cover their faces while the male followers are not required to do so.

If I ever hear an explanation that makes sense, I'll pass it on. Until then, I have no blimmin idea why they do it.

Yes Morris exactly so.

I can't speak for anyone else and would not presume to but I am not Islamophobic and I am insulted by anyone who presumes that especially on the back of a thread like this.

I'm an Atheist and was brought up in a broadly Protestant Christian family but my parents and therefore myself and my brother did not go to church regularly or anything. My DM as an adult decided to be christened and does go to church once or twice a month I think because she feels more comfortable with a low church service, as far as I know my DF doesn't attend at all. My DB also identifies as an Atheist and we came to those conclusions separately ourselves without outside influence over a period of time.

I dislike all religion that presumes to control what people do or say in their everyday life when it doesn't affect anyone but themselves and I especially dislike religious fascists who seek to convert by violence and fear as at the moment the Islamic State are apparently doing. Christianity also has been guilty of this in the past as well such as the Inquisition in Spain, the way that Native Americans were treated by white settlers and the way that white missionaries sought to change the way that Africans, Asians and Orientals had lived for centuries just because they thought it was better and the reigns in the UK of Mary I, Elizabeth I, James I & VI and Charles I (although the latter two were more about the divine right of kings rather than religion itself).

I want to see church and state completely separated in the UK because I feel that religion muddies the waters of debate and compromise and one way forward on this to prevent in public areas modes of dress and behaviour that most of the UK find disturbing such as the face covering and possibly the political display of Islam which is about power not religion. It is ironic that such people cannot see that it is our very tolerance as a country that allows them freedom that they (and the political far right for example) wish to curb for everyone else.

I always peruse these threads in the vaguehope that someone will explain it in a way that sheds some light on it.

Once again, no such luck.

I have absolutely no idea why women - and not men - 'choose' to cover themselves up.

If and when my children ask me, I will tell them I do not know.

I would also go with a simple 'because they choose to' because that's the answer!

I did have to explain to dd2 when she was about 6 that the people in the car next to us weren't robbers!

I'd just say "it's part of their religion - just like some men wear turbans or skull caps". That seems a perfectly adequate explanation for a 4 and 6 year old or anyone else.

Does your son ever ask why almost all women have no hair on their legs and faces?
Because the same answers apply.

ApocalypseThen Wed 08-Oct-14 07:34:45

(Quoting me) My recent dilemma was explaining to an 8 yo girl why there aren't many male teachers

I'm sure, by eight, she knows well that boys and men run a mile from anything seen as overly female. Such as professions with lots of women

What an odd thing to say, she certainly doesn't see teaching as a job for women not men. Nor does she see being a mechanic as only a thing men do or looking after babies something the women do.

DS has never seen anyone in niqab but has hijab (I think, I should really educate myself on all this) and I just said, "sometimes people wear different things because they belong to other religions. Religions are ideas people have about God. We go to Catholic church; they go to a different sort of church."

I said the same thing about some Mennonites he saw not too long after, so he kind of got it. I think he was four at the time.

How about, "Shall we ask the lady" and then ask, just say, "sorry to interrupt you but my son has asked me why you wear xyz, I'm not sure myelf so could you tell us?"

Whatever you do please do not use the explanation that was given upthread

"For some Muslim women, not having men staring at them and thinking they look nice is an important part of their religion. It means they don't want strange men to fancy them."

Because the reasoning there is that women who do not cover their faces do want "strange men" to fancy them. And how do you know when a "strange" man "fancies" you? Usually via street harrassment or worse.

Telling a child, effectively, that women who do not cover their faces are inviting sexual approaches from random men is a terrible thing to do! And could have all sorts of repurcussions for both male and female children if they think hard on that message as some children are wont to do.

Note the fact of women being "uncovered" to a societies standards is in some areas seen as a perfectly valid reason to assault them. Best not to "approve" that view surely.

Similarly of course being covered doesn't protect you from unwanted / violent attention from men in any way shape or form. If a predatory man sees a female and an opportunity, a piece of cloth is not going to stop him doing anything.

I think the simple answer is because they can and because that is how they feel comfortable.

Exactly the same reasons as anyone else chooses what clothes they put on when they get up in the morning.

Thankfully we live in a society where everyone has that freedom of choice.

It may interest some of you to know (or not because it won't fit with your stereotypical ideas of Islam) that in Turkey, where 99% of the population is Muslim but headscarves are banned in many places - that there is a feminist movement for the freedom to wear the headscarf or veil.
Because it is about choice and freedom.

If a woman chooses to cover herself up entirely why would we see that as a personal affront? It is her choice.

Yes, some women may be oppressed but just as many women (if not more) in our society are pressured to take their clothes off as to cover themselves up.

My hairdresser who is a very confident young woman, decided in her early 20s to start covering herself (despite opposition from her Muslim family) because she said that it gave her freedom to concentrate on the things she felt were important in life. She felt that she didn't want to be judged on how she looked and didn't want to feel under pressure to dress in a certain way so it was easier to cover herself altogether. Interesting view from a hairdresser I know, but it made sense to me.

Yes of course Muslim women choose to cover their faces and dress how they want to.

Just like some other women choose to paint their faces, to be prostitutes or even to be porn stars. They are all making rational choices and doing exactly what they want to do

We also live in a diverse area. About 5 mums in DS's class wear hijab. Some mums in the area wear niqab. He's never asked why. Or why some dads have ringlets and wear big hats. Or some men wear dresses or robes. He has never asked why some mums all wear Breton stripes or dye their hair. Or some dads wear too tight jeans and band t-shirts.

I'm hoping against hope that it's because he realises that what other people wear is not any of his concern.

I don't understand why people care so much. It doesn't infringe on your own rights and beliefs. It is a group of people who have chosen to wear an outfit just like everybody wears an outfit.
Whether it is forced or not is an individual issue not an Islamic one.

Every person who wears a niqab in my family does it out of choice. If they stopped tomorrow there would be surprise and disapproval i imagine from their immediate families but no beatings or expulsion from the family. For example the 2 sisters who wear niqab, their mother doesn't she only wears hijab so they would hardly beat and shun them if they did remove the niqab.
Despite a PP gross comparison to the KKK when she said the women who wear it for true purposes would feel bereft without it is right. They wouldn't take it off anyway.

I do think there is Islamaphobia on this thread. Islam is fair game for criticism moreso than any other religion.

As for why the men don't cover up I don't know. I imagine it is because historically in Islamic countries the men would have been the farmers and labourers and workers and so not appropriate? I don't know. I do know several niqabis who work now (in professional jobs not but not in physical work) so not the same issue. Also men do have clothing restrictions. They have to be covered to below their knees. They also have to grow a beard.

Whether women are oppressed or not is an issue it not for every single woman who wears a niqab. Most are happy individuals with healthy relationships and lives. They don't need your pity.

I would say they choose to, because they feel that it is a way of being modest and that it's better not to be looked at. However I would also say that this is for cultural reasons and to do with beliefs and feelings, and that in that culture it doesn't apply to men and women equally, so it's women who cover their faces and men don't. DS knows about sexism and I do point it out here and there.

I think it's possible to choose to do something freely, while at the same time doing it because you have internalised sexist values and want to perpetuate them. Yes, it's their choice, but it can still speak of and perpetuate an unequal situation. I will only see covering your face as some kind of free choice and liberation when it applies equally to men and women and everyone is also free not to. Which many women aren't.

I'm glad UK law doesn't ban it because I think that's the wrong way to go, but that doesn't mean that free choice is actually totally free, if it's deeply informed by ingrained gender inequality and expectations.

And anyway why is 'our' way of life so much better. The way society 'forces' women to look these days is not something worthy. The obsession with our figures and our looks and how to be the 'perfect' woman. Is this something to be lauded? But we have free will.
In many Islamic countries women don't have free will I agree but in Britain the vast majority of women who wear it do and they have chosen this way of life. Who is to say it is so much worse than 'our' way of life?

Daughters ask. Maybe not sons but daughters ask.

I wouldn't dream of even trying to make sense of the couple I saw on a hot day, her completely covered in thick black and he in shorts.

It was inexplicably to me on any level. It was equally inexplicable to my dds.

However each to their own.

Actually I don't think western/christian/whatever society is better at all. It also has deeply ingrained sexism and sexist values that are perpetuated by women as well as men. Some of them are harder to spot too.

But what kind of gender inequality and sexism?
Is it about being in traditional roles? Because a lot of western women choose that too. A woman who wears niqab will most likely be a SAHM like lots of non Muslim women. She will choose this traditional lifestyle. Her husband will be the breadwinner yes. But that's about it.
What other kind of gender inequality?
The marriages I know are happy ones despite the traditionally roles. The women are in charge of the house and children (and often finances) while the husband works. Nobody thinks the man is better or in charge. It's just how they do it

But thebody so what if she was in black on a hot day? I don't get it. I wouldn't wear shorts and a vest on a hot day. It's better to be covered anyway in the sun! I might wear a long yellow dress. She wore a black one

There is a woman on our street with bright blue hair. If my DC's asked why she has blue hair I would say "because she wants to" and it would be the same answer if applied to a niqab.

Some posters seem so frightened of Islam. I don't know much about it, I am Atheist and didn't pay attention in RE so I don't know much about many religions... but I do know that I respect everyones choices. I am happy we are free to wear what the hell we want here. Blue hair, painted faces etc etc

Some of the comments about prostitutes and KKK are SO WEIRD.

The deep ways in which women and men value themselves and each other. If you really think it is modest to cover yourself up so that you don't get looked at / fancied by a strange man, and that that doesn't apply the other way around (i.e. men don't have to cover up so they don't get fancied by a strange woman), what does that say? That women are responsible for men's sexual response, and that therefore women are to blame if they are not modest, and women are to blame in cases of rape and molestation, women are to blame when men do bad things.

Look at honour killings, look at old male judge's beliefs that women shouldn't dress immodestly or get drunk if they want to avoid rape, and the same issue in India with the police believing that, look at the DV statistics, look at the DM blaming single mothers and not the men who ran away and ditched their responsibilities. It all stems from the same deep problem, that women aren't valued and respected in the same way men are, and that women get the blame when men behave badly.

I don't like anything that perpetuates that inequality, even if on an individual level, the woman is happy and in control. She might be happy and in control (or think she is) but what concerns me is the message she's sending. Other women, men and children take in that message on a deep, not necessarily conscious level.