To not know how to explain to DSs why women wear a niqab?

[MrsJamin]

I live in a really diverse area - we've often seen women wearing a niqab on the school run and today I wondered what I would say if DS1 or 2 asked why they were wearing one. I honestly don't know what I should say or how I could explain it. They're 4 and 6. A good idea is welcome as I don't know.

My 2yr old exclaimed loudly about a lady walking through Cardiff and covered apart from her eyes 'What's that?!'.
Sadly, he didn't even see her as a person I don't think.

Bulbasaur thank you, that gave me a laugh
Me in my undies would be enough to drive anyone to religion.
However, it doesn't really appease me, unfortunately.
Wearing clothes is acceptable human social behaviour.
Unless one is living in a repressive religious society (whether that community is in Birmingham or Istanbul) then it is irrelevant what a woman wears everyday, unless it is part of a misogynistic culture, which requires women to cover up and be "unseen".
Again, I should say, my upbringing has influenced me hugely, in that I have probably seen the greatest revolt of a gender repressed group that any religion will see in their lifespan, and view any religion which only imposes rules on one gender (particularly those relating to dress, reproduction, appearance etc) very VERY dimly.
I am interested in the CHOICE the women have in these situations - if there is no choice, then it is repression. I cannot see how it would be otherwise.

point taken Nancy

maybe I should put that we should respect that other people have different faiths and maybe we should respect that they choose to follow that faith and that ours may differ

does not mean we all have to believe in the same thing

i do not feel being an atheist should mean i have no respect for christians, muslims, catholics, jews, buddhists, hindus or people who are and who are very religious because the vast majority of religious people i know are good people as are the people who are not

I am framing the "choice" strictly in the dress sense - I am aware that Muslims have much great reproductive choice than catholic believers.

Yes I am comparing the KKK to Islam. If discrimination based on colour is wrong, why is discrimination based on religion not so as well ?

Islam treats non-muslims as lesser....graded scale according to whether you are "people of the Book' or just out and out idol worshippers like 'filthy' Hindus. The unequal treatment is codified in Islamic law e.g. a non-muslims testimony against a muslims is of lesser worth. Non-muslims cannot be the Head of State in an Islamic country e.g. Pakistan. As someone of Pakistani origin, I find this deeply shameful and extremely repulsive.

I don't care if they want to wear certain clothing although I don't understand it.

I don't care if they want to wear a headscarf although I don't understand it.

I do care that they cover their faces and I do not think anyone should do this in the UK (or anywhere else but we can only control what happens in the UK).

I've told my kids something along the lines of:
"Because they believe that there's a god in the sky that wants women to cover up and rhe men in their family often also te them to cover up". It's bonkers but I leave it tp them to see Islam for the mysoginistic cult that it is.

MistressMia I understand that there are the same beliefs in other religions too. For example, an atheist/non-Christian President of the United States of America is unthinkable. They couldn't take the oath.

Your argument is a logical fallacy and inflammatory. That issue is one of the separation of religion and state. Given the preponderance of schools selective on faith in this country, I don't think we've quite managed that here either.

really all muslims treat non muslims as lesser humans

you know the koran can be taken apart (as all religious texts) and used to abuse and suppress people

to compare to the KKK who also had support from some Christian groups does that mean Christians support the KKK well no of course not

are we really that close to having a muslim pm, i doubt it why because of fear

I've always thought that women wear a niqab or burka for many of the same reasons other women wear uncomfortable clothing because they think it makes them look sexy. Some wear it for themselves and because they want to, some wear it for their men or to appear more attractive to them, some wear it for social convention or because they think they need to, and others is a combination of all of these factors.

I cannot think of any other religion that demands the female face be concealed.

Lots of religions/cults/sects dictate clothing and hair/head cover rules that should be followed by believers but the covering of the face seems to be unique to Islam.

I personally believe that this particular tradition sprang out of sensible precautions for living in desert environments and was a way of protecting the face and body in sandstorms etc but that this was a precaution taken by both sexes and I think possibly one that is still used by desert nomads today?

Then somehow, at some point it has been mistaken for a religious imperative for some reason when it was nothing of the sort.

So really, my uneducated and ignorant question is, what would happen if the most militant veil wearing amongst you decided NOT to wear it tomorrow morning?

I can answer this question having once been a pious muslim.

If you are wearing the Niqab for deeply held religious convictions i.e. you truly believe that it is a mandatory requirement because Allah has commanded it so, then not wearing it will leave you feeling in turmoil and sorrow that you are displeasing and disobeying Allah. These women's reasons are purely spiritual.

There is however another brand of Niqabi who covers principally as a political message. The message of political Islam. These are the younger Niqabi's who are pushing for Islam to take greater prominence in everyday life. Who don't believe in a secular society, but who want Islam to be the dominant ruling force. For these, the Niqab denotes their superiority and separateness. To not wear it, would simply be like removing a uniform. There wouldn't be the internal angst felt by those wearing it for spiritual reasons.

A third, but much smaller group are those forced to wear it. Sadly, there is no prospect of not being able to just get up and not cover up. To not do so would lead to probable beatings from family members.

really all muslims treat non muslims as lesser humans No Islam treats non-muslims as lesser, NOT individual muslims. Please try and separate the person from the ideology.

MistressMia I understand that there are the same beliefs in other religions too. For example, an atheist/non-Christian President of the United States of America is unthinkable. They couldn't take the oath.

Not true:
usgovinfo.about.com/od/thepresidentandcabinet/a/can-the-president-be-a-muslim.htm

In contrast:
tribune.com.pk/story/228680/non-muslims-ought-to-be-eligible-to-become-president-pm-kamran-michael/

I am hoping DD has forgotten that I once explained God as 'like having an imaginary friend who makes lots of rules'.

For very small children, I think the best explanation for religious practices is probably 'Because they want to'. However, I can see this one being used against me when suggesting that a cat costume isn't in line with the schools uniform policy.

Knowing DD, she'd probably claim God told her that He wanted her to wear a cat costume to school.

I have said to children "because they believe that it helps then to follow their religion, but other Muslim ladies don't think it helps them. What's important is that they get to decide and we respect their choice". I got follow up questions about why they disagreed and I explained that in almost anything from religion to what game to play in the playground people have different opinions and that is okay.

MistressMia, fair enough, the President of the United States of America can be an atheist/not a Christian. In my opinion the chances of someone without/of a different faith being nominated, let alone voted in, are vanishingly small, but that's just my opinion.

The central point of my argument remains. The UK monarch, for example, has only recently been 'allowed' in law to marry a person of the Catholic faith, and the monarch must be of the Church of England faith. Laws would have to be changed for it to be otherwise.

Therefore in the UK state and religion are not separate, as they are not separate in other countries. Granted, to a greater or lesser degree. Another example would be Ireland.

The point being, nations of all faiths codify into state law the supremacy of the dominant religion. This does not provide a logical proof that any of them are 'just like the KKK'.

Mmm, there is a wing of Islam that seems to demand this, but I heard one time that it really took off under colonialism, because of white men believing that native women were fair game for anything.

Mrsjamin I'm a Christian and have done a small amount of reading and thinking about interfaith issues (think very small amount!).

I do not know much but I would stick to very simple explanations at this young stage. There are lots of religions in the world, and in the UK, and they all have different codes of practice, including dress codes.

The CBBC Newsround website is quite good. Obviously this website is for older kids but you could edit down a version of it and it may be useful for your children if they ask questions.

news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_6050000/newsid_6054200/6054244.stm

Also

www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/24118241

I can't guarantee this information is correct but it's a place to start.

IMHO I think with many things there are a variety of reasons why people do things, I'd stick with the simple version, the followers of that religion are thinking of thinking is religious modesty. That's for young kids but when they are older they may want to talk about wider areas, especially if they have friends who are Muslim. I had this conversation with my dd when she was 7 because we went to London and saw lots of women is head scarves and I think it was the first time she had seen it as we live in a rural area where there are very few Muslims.

We had this question from our children a few years ago when we spent a (great) holiday in London. We live in US and where we are (major east coast city) there are certainly women who wear the veil/scarf or even the full robe but not so many our children would ever have noticed. For some reason there were loads of hijab/niqab wearing women in the part of London we were in.

It was particularly noticeable when we walked through Hyde Park on a hot July day behind a young married couple holding hands - she in full robe. he with jeans half way down his ass showing his underpants in a way I had repeatedly told my 15 year old son was not permissible for him. It was an interesting discussion.

I told my children that some women wore the scarf/veil/robe because they felt their religion and culture required them to do so and perhaps they felt comfortable doing so.

I also explained that we (their father and I) thought this was not a good rule for women to impose on themselves and that the responsibility for modesty lay in the eyes/hands of the beholder. I'm afraid I explained particularly to my daughters that any religion or culture imposing this way of dressing on women was objectively wrong in the opinion of their father and me. this is what I believe so this is what I pass on to my children. I feel no responsibility to pass on to my children as normal beliefs and mores that I don't agree with.

FGM, like the Niqab, is closely associated with the Muslim faith, and chosen by Muslim women. How do you explain that to small children? I hate repressive, sexist practices, and don't think religion is any excuse for putting up with sexism.

I think that when kids are too young to understand this, I would just give a simple answer to the question about why women wear the niqab, probably telling my kids that I don't really know / don't understand-

They're not always ultra-religious. Sometimes it's just a cultural thing too - doubtless they were/are useful in regions with lots of sandstorms. They were worn by women before Islam too. I saw a beautifully embroidered one the other day.

My ddil is a Turkish Muslim and neither she nor any of her female relatives wear niqab, hijab or anything other than normal Western dress. Some of the really old women wear a headscarf but not all. Their husbands go to the mosque and are devout, there is a Koran in every household but there is no oppression, no pressure on girls to cover heads, faces etc. The extreme clothes are not an essential part of being a good Muslim.

My recent dilemma was explaining to an 8 yo girl why there aren't many male teachers

I'm sure, by eight, she knows well that boys and men run a mile from anything seen as overly female. Such as professions with lots of women.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/06/the-niqab-makes-me-feel-liberated-and-no-law-will-stop-me-from-wearing-it

I quite like this. "When we meet, I choose what you see. You deal with my mind and personality"

Answer: for lots of different reasons.

Why do lots of women paint their lips menstrual red, wear Foyt -destroying high heels and spend enormous sums on bags?
Why do men wear ties?

Turn the question back on your child, find out what level of answer they are capable of and discuss it- discussion is always better than a flat answer for questions like this.

This thread absolutely confirms my belief that a kind of Islamophobia is on the rise.