To actually be worried about UKIP/Britain First?

[Sahkoora]

I'm so surprised to see so many "friends" posting anti-Muslim Facebook posts, mostly things from Britain First. I have a firm deletion policy on this, but it's getting to the stage where it's family members and people I would consider close friends.

Last night DSis and BIL came over and conversation wended around to the fact they were both planning to vote UKIP. To be fair, DSis is shockingly ignorant, has never read a newspaper in her life and seriously couldn't name a single person in the government beyond David Cameron.

Their argument is that they used to live in Barking and it's "spot the white man", and the Muslims are rude and stare at you all the time. Apparently if we'd lived there, we'd understand. I am shocked by this!

On the news I see Nigel Farage interviewed as if he's a serious contender with a chance of getting some real power. Is this so?

Do lots of people really feel this way, and will it likely make a real difference in future elections? I am a bit terrified to think that people I love really feel this way about other human beings, and are attributing it to race and religion.

NewStatesman I'm afraid I don't agree that Brexit would necessarily be economic suicide. It would be disruptive, sure, but I've read extensively around this and the case is far from proven either way IMO.

Certainly with the basket case of the eurozone lurching from crisis to crisis and overall EU growth forecast to achieve less than 1% in 2014 we're hardly yoking ourselves to an economic powerhouse. A friend of mine in the Foreign Office told me before the 2008 crash that it was an open secret in the UK civil service that no-one is willing to do a cost/benefit analysis of UK EU membership because the result was likely to be so close-run. And this was before the crash happened, the PIGS countries imploded and the enormous bailouts started, and the cries for fiscal union, and the 'at any cost' commitments to protect the eurozone from its own structural problems. Thanks to the EU's deflationary edicts, youth unemployment is still hovering around the 40% mark in Spain and has been for years; there are regular riots in Greece at the austerity policies enforced by Brussels. Why shouldn't we forge stronger links with countries that are actually growing, rather than shackle ourselves to a sclerotic corpse?

Anyone who warbles on à la Salmond about how it'd all be sunshine and roses post-Brexit is likely talking bollocks. There would be some challenges. But none of them are insuperable and the overall benefits of regaining sovereignty are worth it. Less red tape, a sensible points-based immigration system, trade negotiations in our own national interest unfiltered by Brussels horse-trading. Etc, etc. (Oh and here's Forbes on Clegg's oft-touted lie about losing 3 million jobs if we left.)

livingzuid you post *Made harder by the government desperately trying to limit net immigration whilst having an open door to Europe...

Based on what information do you make this statement? Any government is damned if it does damned if it doesn't. A tough stance on non EU immigration is a separate issue to the EU question.

And I have yet to see a post looking at net migration from the UK. It's not a one way street.*

By definition net migration is a two way street: The Conservatives pledged in their 2010 manifesto to substantially reduce annual net migration - the difference between the numbers entering and leaving the UK - by 2015.

This has resulted in a crack down on foreign university students amongst others, as they are easy targets to reduce the net migration figure. But surelywe should be welcoming foreign students.

Exactly jchoc. The racist Schengen agreement says (predominantly white) Europeans are all welcome to move to the UK, regardless of their skills, while an Indian dentist or a Ghanaian engineer has to jump through all manner of hoops. how is that fair or indeed supportive of diversity?

We need a sensible immigration system that levels the playing field.

So it is the pro EUs who are racist then as they discriminate in favour of predominantly white Europeans!

Oh what rubbish. It is as hard for an Australian, New Zealander, Canadian, US, whoever to move here. I was married to one and it was very difficult indeed to have visas arranged, often taking years and long spells back in his home country waiting for approval and applications to be processed. Not to mention that it is prohibitively expensive.

If you are referring to highly skilled migrants then they have to prove their standard of education is as good as one from a British/EU university and they have the skill and language ability to transfer into the system. This is, very rightly, challenging and should be rigorous. Standards are just not the same in some countries as others and it would just provide something else for UKIP supporters to beat their breast about.

You are contradicting yourself with your statements on points based immigration. But seeing as you are a UKIP fan there's not much point in stating the blindingly obvious. It always amazes me at how people really think the UK is the centre of the universe and every man and his dog are so desperate to get in. It's arrogant to the point of embarrassment to the rest of the nation. Farage by the way did not at all answer the very excellent line of questions the BBC reporter put to him about his wife having taken away a job from a British person who could quite have easily done it.

And I quite agree with the point that we should be welcoming foreign students. The universities need the income and we need the diversity in our student population with the richness that different educational backgrounds.

No living just because there are white people outside of Europe does not change the fact the the current immigration policy discriminates in favour of majority white Europeans and against majority not-white non-Europeans.

And who are you accusing of being a UKIP fan?

living I'm not a UKIP fan particularly. I am eurosceptic though. They are different things.

It's a fair point that immigration from the US and Australia is subject to the same strictures as India and China. But anyone who doubts that the EU's membership policy has discriminatory overtones should ask themselves why Turkey has been excluded for so long when other arguably less qualified (but also less Muslim) countries have been allowed to join.

If you are referring to highly skilled migrants then they have to prove their standard of education is as good as one from a British/EU university and they have the skill and language ability to transfer into the system. This is, very rightly, challenging and should be rigorous.

If it's right that the process should be rigorous, why does it only apply to non-Europeans? My brother's GF is Nigerian; they met at Harvard; she is a hugely impressive and highly skilled individual who would be an asset to any employer here. I think it's outrageous that an unskilled labourer from Romania should be given precedence over her in deciding who can immigrate here.

Forming trading blocs based on geographic proximity is a 20th century idea conceived to address 20th century conditions, and doesn't bring the same benefits in the 21st century world of globalised trade when you want to attract the best people from around the world, not just form little clubs with your nearest geographical neighbours.

Yes my friend got called an f'ing paki yesterday in London fgs. They are the acceptable face of racism. This person has not heard the word in years. I fear for this country no good can come from the likes of this thinly veiled racism.

I am more worried that a party that will resolve the immigration crisis won't get in power. We need someone with a backbone that will deport anyone that has come in in the last 20 years that we don't desperately need. Regardless of colour BTW.

deport anyone that has come in in the last 20 years that we don't desperately need

Maybe they should start deporting indigenous people (and what is the definition of this anyway?) that they don't really need as well. A kind of cleansing by skill set.

Because European universities and educational systems are far more rigorous than African ones and have been designed with programmes in place to make knowledge transfer easier. That is a simple fact. Things are slowly changing and more agreements in place but until the same academic rigour is demonstrated across the board there is every right to be cautious. One example from Nigeria is hardly enough to warrant the radical overhaul you describe. The South African higher education system is now in crisis because secondary education cannot support the positive discrimination measures in place, well meaning though they are. The immigration issue is not a simple thing to resolve and how can the UK fix what is a global problem on its own? I would hate to see the UK become Australia or the US.

And yes it is bloody difficult to get in no matter what colour you are from outside of the EU. The freedom of movement of people across Europe is an amazing thing designed to break down all sorts of barriers.

As for all the hair brained madness about leaving the the EU it was one of the only things I liked and understood about the Yes campaign in how they realised the need to work with the EU and how bloody expensive it would be if it was not a part of it.

This continual bleating about immigration of Romanians and whoever is tiresome in the extreme. There are more British people living in Spain than there are Romanians in the UK. It's called working together with your nearest neighbours to prosper together rather than some imaginary immigration rampage. and all these uneducated people piling in to steal jobs and claim benefits. Some of these posts read like copy and paste from the Daily Mail. Completely racist and uneducated crap.

I was horrified watching the referendum results to see a UKIP thug on TV spouting nonsense from Brussels. I cannot believe we allowed that to represent us on an international stage. So OP you absolutely are not being unreasonable. I fail to understand why so much air time is given to Farage and Co and the media not dragging him over the coals as they should do but I guess that's what happens when the likes of Murdoch and the Barclays are in charge. People need to get out and vote before this creeping rot has the chance to set in any further.

But I'm not talking about higher education. I'm talking about immigration generally. And I'm genuinely flummoxed that you could describe as racist my wanting to level the playing field so a UK immigration application by a Nigerian is judged on the same criteria as one by a German.

The freedom of movement of people across Europe is an amazing thing designed to break down all sorts of barriers.

This makes it sound as though Schengen was implemented to bring about our moral and spiritual development by introducing the backward masses to cultural diversity. Which is nonsense - Schengen is a free-market capitalist agreement intended to further the interests of business by making labour cheaper and more mobile. By all means defend it on that basis - there are some strong arguments along this line - but it has nothing to do with cultural anything, that's just Blairite window-dressing and of supreme indifference to the EU's technocrats.

There are more British people living in Spain than there are Romanians in the UK

I imagine the expats living in Spain are self sufficient.

I think I will be voting green.
As a life long labour voter it pains me more than I can tell you to say that.
Tories - evil elitist scum
Labour - unelectable leader and no policies
UKip - racist misogynist morons
Lib dem - a joke
There are so few options for liberals like me who want strong economic leadership along with social Justice and equality.

What do the people who complain about immigration think would happen to the NHS, nursing homes etc if we "sent them all back?"

And so what, anyway, if there are more Brits in Spain than Romanians in the UK? What does that have to do with a discussion about the relative merits of Schengen vs an even-handed points based system applied to all nations?

You know, I'm starting to think that the green party have more name callers in than most. There are racists in all parties, why do they single out UKIP?

I think it is a shame that you are classing the Lib Dems as a joke. They have good Councillors on a local government level. It is so sad that the Tories manipulated them and arranged a fixed term parliament. Ok, good for stability, but gave the Tories more confident and bargaining power in the coalition as they knew there would not be a vote of no confidence.

As I say I have a good Tory MP, even though I would never vote Tory he is a principled chap who does not blindly follow the whip and listens to his constituents.

No one has mentioned Respect as a party. George Galloway has some interesting ideas, doesn't he?

Lets all have and and stop the name calling.

I would vote UKIP because they oppose HS2 and the decentralisation of our London-based economy and power base. I would vote Green for the same reason. None of the big three parties do this. Immigration as a stand-alone policy is not something I would go for.

UKIP and the Greens differ on environment and immigration, but after that theyhave a surprising number of similarities. The trouble with the Green party is that so far they haven't made a very good job of Brighton, and I think they'd be too ineffectual on an international stage.

My issue with the Greens is a totally fairytale energy policy. But since the lights will be going out (not that you'll hear about it) this winter, unless we are incredibly lucky with the weather, then the Tory/Labour track record isn't anything which inspires confidence.

My hope is for a no overall control parliament, with no two single parties holding a majority. Hopefully we might get some policies grounded in reality, rather than ideology.

What the "Left" needs to do is somehow get a different message out to the population than the right wing, pro free market, divide and rule, fear inducing, xenophobic, anti-European nonsense that is bandied about in most parts of the media which leads to the kind of sad ignorance and paranoia you see on this thread and elsewhere.

Ohthehugemanatee
Agree. Good posts.

I work in Barking so can kind of see their point