To actually be worried about UKIP/Britain First?

[Sahkoora]

I'm so surprised to see so many "friends" posting anti-Muslim Facebook posts, mostly things from Britain First. I have a firm deletion policy on this, but it's getting to the stage where it's family members and people I would consider close friends.

Last night DSis and BIL came over and conversation wended around to the fact they were both planning to vote UKIP. To be fair, DSis is shockingly ignorant, has never read a newspaper in her life and seriously couldn't name a single person in the government beyond David Cameron.

Their argument is that they used to live in Barking and it's "spot the white man", and the Muslims are rude and stare at you all the time. Apparently if we'd lived there, we'd understand. I am shocked by this!

On the news I see Nigel Farage interviewed as if he's a serious contender with a chance of getting some real power. Is this so?

Do lots of people really feel this way, and will it likely make a real difference in future elections? I am a bit terrified to think that people I love really feel this way about other human beings, and are attributing it to race and religion.

"uKiP aren't racist, they have many non-White supporters"

I'm not racist, some of my best friends are black...

We get constantly told by MPs that Britain has always welcomed those in need blah blah and there is an, imo, colonial attitude that our country is better than others (probably not counting those in the western EU) and that therefore we should generously allow these deprived souls to benefit from our fair minded and well managed homeland, let them see how a country really should be run.

In fact many come to the UK not because they admire it, but so that they can make a quick buck to take or send back to their real home, where their true loyalties lie (I would do the same in their shoes).

Many immigrants are here because they can't get somewhere better, like the US, they are here because their own countries are corrupt. They are NOT here because they admire us, want to be like us, or have any loyalty to us.

Hence I will vote UKIP as other parties continue to spin the yarns.

Sand - UKIP aren't being ignored now but I remember being quite shocked before the Euro elections at the unanimity with which the broadsheets and mainstream parties tried to shut down and vilify them. The Greens don't attract that level of vitriol. It's not a level playing field and liberal tolerance is pretty selective about what it tolerates. Take, for example, the contrast between the way the Guardian reported the Trojan Horse scandal ad te way it has reported UKIP gaffes. Two sets of illiberal views (militant Islamism and militant Little Englandism, if you will) and UKIP got both barrels while they printed PR puff pieces for the governors of the schools involved.

I think this kind of failure to be even-handed in the practice of naice liberal tolerance is one of the sources of the often inarticulate and shouty frustration expressed by many Ukippers.

Ugh, this thread is depressing. Everyone seems to think UKIP are the answer

I think the argument then becomes do the press have a duty to be even handed in their reporting. I would argue that perhaps a state funded broadcaster does but does the Guardian? does the Daily Mail? (I don't read either by the way so don't know how they reported UKIP)

These are commercial ventures driven by profit perhaps at the time they reported UKIP's gaffes, they thought the minority of their readership was likely to have UKIP sympathies, that changed after the European election and they thought the way to make money was to take them seriously. Their choice.

Honestly I think those of us who think UKIP are narrow minded and xenophobic, should be ignoring them, not engaging with them. Treating them as essentially pointless. Debating with them, being depressed by their rise, gives them legitimacy and a power they don't actually possess. The Greens don't get vitriol from the press because well they are essentially pointless, they are no threat to the status quo. Attacking someone shows you are threatened and the establishment is threatened by UKIP.

I think the saddest thing is a lot of UKIP voters would be very disadvantaged if they actually got into power, there won't be more jobs, more homes, better schools, better healthcare, lower crime. It is a fantasy they are being pedalled. Easy to sell if you don't have to deliver. It is all very well to decry human rights until it is your now non existent rights that are breached, it is all very well to want to bring back hanging until the noose is around your neck.

I think this kind of failure to be even-handed in the practice of naice liberal tolerance is one of the sources of the often inarticulate and shouty frustration expressed by many Ukippers.

And then we compound it by patronising the individuals who are trying to express themselves, calling them racist and closing our ears.

Those of us who think UKIP are narrow minded and xenophobic, should be ignoring them, not engaging with them.

But that's different from ignoring and not engaging with the concerns and opinions of friends, relatives and acquaintances who are sharing 'Britain First' Memes on FB.

People think they know who the UKIP voters are, I've seen a few generalisations on this thread.

Fact is you don't know who your friends and family vote for, or who anyone votes for. It's anonymous.

Kinkytoes - good point, there was a lot of this in the recent Scotish referendum - people who had every intention of voting 'no' saying they were going to vote yes as it was the popular thing to say or just not talking about it. Many working on the 'yes' campaign were very shocked by 'no' votes in certain areas, that everyone they'd talked to had said they were voting yes.

Voting UKIP has a certain reputation, not everyone is going to be public about it.

And not all voters are are think as many on here think, they dont like all of UKIPs policies, they do understand them, they just want to give a 'protest' vote and are guessing (most probably correctly) that UKIP won't get enough votes to become the party of government, at best they might get one or two MPs then be useful in a coallision or in votes that are close, but not actually any risk they'll do any of this stuff.

As they are seen as the 'anti EU' party, many people are voting UKIP for this reason only, to make the mainstream parties take notice of them.

Labour and the Tories have both ignored their core voters for some time. Those core voters are looking for a way to smash them round the back of the head to take notice of them. That doesn't mean they want UKIP to be the party of government.

(Not voting UKIP BTW - i don't think we've reached tipping point when being in the EU costs outweigh the benefits, however I am aware I am in the group that have benefited or at least not been negatively effected by the large immigration from eastern Europe, I might feel differently if I was in the other group).

Mary your post is really interesting. In your last paragraph, who are you referring to when you say 'the other group'? Who has been negatively affected by immigration?

UKIP are not racist. Yes some members may be, as are many Conservative, Labour and Lib dem voters I'm sure.

You cannot band the word racist about if someone is opposed to immigration. That is all I see on this forum.

I am historically a staunch conservative as is my husband and family and yes I am very much against immigration, I feel incredibly let down by the current government in terms of how they are handling the immigration problem. My Husband and I will not be donating as much to the conservative government if they don't start taking a firm hand. I know a few staunch conservatives are defecting to UKIP due to not only immigration but the issues with our EU membership.

Why on earth should Britain be an open door? We cannot afford to let anymore immigrants into the country, our public services are already over stretched.

UKIP is providing a wake up call to the government and the opposition party, they know it's a priority of the electorate to sort out the immigration policies and make us less 'attractive' to the immigrants who by pass all of mainland Europe to settle in Britain.

I agree with Superwife.... To allow people into the UK just because they want to come is not the answer.

I only got involved in this thread because it linked UKIP with Britain First. They are not the same thing. Britain First is nasty, I don't know anyone who would disagree with that sentiment.

UKIP is a legitimate anti EU party that wants a merit based system of immigration that would limit the number of unskilled European migrants and make space for refugees and skilled workers from the whole world. I still don't get how that is racist.

I don't think that it is productive to call names, all the parties need to set out their policies so that we can have the election next year and chose what ever we feel is best.

I don't know why people think that it's that easy for people (EU excluded) to come to the UK. You should see the hoops that people have to jump through to even get a tourist visa to come here, never mind any sort of work or settlement visa.
I'm an immigrant who went through the whole process a few years ago, and trust me it's not easy. Or cheap.

Can I just say how much I've been enjoying this thread...it got me through a nightmare 2.5 hour commute full of train breakdowns with something to think about and engage in besides how much I want to kill our regional train service. I'm probably too knackered to add anything else this evening but I've enjoyed reading all the different perspectives in this discussion

Oh and UKIP might not officially be racist but before the EU elections it was another week, another disgraced UKIP candidate. So they might not be racisit, but they certainly attract racists to their ranks. If they want to be taken seriously they need to be a little more selective about their candidates.

You know, it's this attitude where you presume everyone is 'racist' and you desperately try and prove how liberal you are that results in someone as unelectable as Ed Milliband running the Labour Party.

Anyway, I am surprised the Greens aren't more staunchly anti immigration. You'd think they would be the people worried about housing, infrastucture, overcrowding etc, but no, it seems recycling is more of a priority.
People are sick of being preached to by the patronising new labour types.Oh Labour, how far you've come from your roots.....

Depressingly it's a two horse race between UKIP and Labour where I live. The Lib Dem was a very close second in the last election but the LDs were hammered in the local and Euro elections, so they are not feasible any longer.

My biggest concern going into the next election is the restoration of equal democratic rights for the English and resolution of the West Lothian question. I do not want Labour's balkanisation agenda of splitting England into regions to happen. We were offered a regional assembly in my area some years ago but a referendum was held and the resounding response was that we didn't want one.

I do not trust Labour on the NHS. I worked for the NHS prior to 2010 and Labour was at that point very much committed to privatising the NHS via services being put out to tender with commercial bids accepted. The NHS seems to be Labour's sole focus at the moment. I also do not trust them on social justice as the cost of housing went bananas, living standards dropped and the gap between rich and poor yawned wide open under the last Labour government. Also the sex abuse scandal which was covered up by Labour apparatchiks happened near me which had made me incredibly distrustful of Labour.

Given those reasons my main priority is to stop Labour getting in for another term. I may reluctantly vote UKIP purely as it's the only way I can stop Labour getting in.

I would be hoping for a Conservative majority, but if not that a Conservative coalition with UKIP and the Lib Dems which would effectively neuter UKIP.

I don't want UKIP to win a majority and if I thought that might happen I might change my vote, but I really view a UKIP minority in a coalition as a lesser evil than five years of Labour.

Backinthering I know that it is very hard to get a visa for the uk from a non eu country. Made harder by the government desperately trying to limit net immigration whilst having an open door to Europe...

Well said mrsruffallo all of my "Labour" friends have said they despair.

Another Green voter here. Cant stand UKIP But if ppl think its mainly older ppl voting for them they are wrong. Ive seen on other threads on this very board Mners posting that they know of young people who plan to vote UKIP My niece is one of them.

The sheet hypocrisy of Farage spouting off about anti EU border controls with a German wife is beyond enough. Is it therefore to be immigration on certain terms and if your face fits? Will his own partner be subject to the same scrutiny? He's quite happy to freeload as an MEP and would actually have a heart attack if he ever did get UKIP into power. He'd actually have to do something then.

What about the millions of Britons living in the EU and benefitting from the free movement agreement which would come to an abrupt halt? All this utter garbage about the EU and how awful it is is tedious. It needs a governance overhaul but the benefits the UK has as a member far outweighs the downsides.

The immigration argument is ridiculous. Diversity, children being around different languages and having a chance to learn them, appreciation and tolerance of other cultures is something we should be proud about as a country and we have a strong history of helping others and is one of the reasons it has made us a world leader to this day. Closing borders and becoming inward looking is one of the most dangerous things to do. I lived in a poorer part of London for many years yet at no point did I think it was because of any immigrant. People come here to make a better life for themselves and should be supported rather than discouraged. Most will be working and paying taxes and contributing to society. It is grossly unfair to lump everyone together and assume the worst.

Made harder by the government desperately trying to limit net immigration whilst having an open door to Europe...

Based on what information do you make this statement? Any government is damned if it does damned if it doesn't. A tough stance on non EU immigration is a separate issue to the EU question.

And I have yet to see a post looking at net migration from the UK. It's not a one way street.

"I too hate the facile and xenophobic arguments that are often employed to justify a vote for UKIP (I studied German and Spanish at university, so can hardly be called anti-European!) but to dismiss every UKIP voter as an ignorant racist is both patronising and overly simplistic."

THIS. The Left really, really needs to get a grip on this problem and start engaging with these people rather than mocking them. Otherwise it will lose them to parties like UKIP.

As for me: I detest bloody UKIP (for one reason, leaving the EU would be economic suicide... and I say that as someone who doesn't even like the EU much. We need to stay in and reform it. For another reason, most of their policies are, like completely.... mad).

However, I have concerns about the very high levels of immigration we have seen for the past 10 years and would like to see this dialed back. Not for UKIP-y reasons, particularly.... more like, for "blue Labour" reasons.

It is very difficult to combine a "generous immigration policy" (=admitting large numbers of people from low-income countries) with a "generous welfare state"the two things don't mesh very well and are probably impossible to combine in the long run. That's why the Nordic countries like Norway, Sweden and Denmark are having such a difficult time right nowthey are wrestling with the whole dilemma of diversity vs. the welfare state. There are no easy answers to this.

It's a question of, do we want to be more like Norway (low immigration, only modest diversity, generous welfare state) or do we want to be more like America (lots of immigration from low-income countries, very diverse, feeble safety net for the poor)?

I can't disagree that Labour are bloody awful now. I think they've totally lost their way. But I think anyone who votes UKIP to punish them will find themselves repenting at leisure. I don't think they will be a friend to the working class. I'm also surprised at any women being tempted to vote for them given their stance on maternity rights.
I'm generally saddened that people are reacting to the difficulties of the last few years by moving right politically. Solidarity feels nearly non existant in England now. Different vibe in Scotland but it's not going to be our choice who is governing us from Westminster.

living - There's nothing hypocritical about arguing for a points-based immigration system while having a foreign wife. Farage's objection to open door immigration isn't on the basis of the immigrants being foreign as such, but on the basis of not being able to decide who immigrates.

Britain has plenty of low-skilled indigenous people and when loads more arrive it just drives down wages for the poorest as there are so many more competing for jobs and being willing to work cash in hand, share accommodation etc. A points-based immigration system would enable us to welcome skilled people from around the world while protecting pay and conditions for people with fewer skills and hence less able to negotiate for a competitive salary.

Arguably Schengen is more racist than a points-based system. Why should it be harder for skilled people to come here from India than it is from Germany? Why shouldn't an economist or shipbroker or software developer from China have the same chance of a job in England than someone from Berlin? Is it because the Germans are white and more like us? That's the current system enforced by the EU.

Under a points-based system it's perfectly possible that Mrs Farage could end up immigrating to the UK - it's just that she'd be competing on a level playing field with people from India, China, Brazil etc and not just people from within the EU.