To actually be worried about UKIP/Britain First?

[Sahkoora]

I'm so surprised to see so many "friends" posting anti-Muslim Facebook posts, mostly things from Britain First. I have a firm deletion policy on this, but it's getting to the stage where it's family members and people I would consider close friends.

Last night DSis and BIL came over and conversation wended around to the fact they were both planning to vote UKIP. To be fair, DSis is shockingly ignorant, has never read a newspaper in her life and seriously couldn't name a single person in the government beyond David Cameron.

Their argument is that they used to live in Barking and it's "spot the white man", and the Muslims are rude and stare at you all the time. Apparently if we'd lived there, we'd understand. I am shocked by this!

On the news I see Nigel Farage interviewed as if he's a serious contender with a chance of getting some real power. Is this so?

Do lots of people really feel this way, and will it likely make a real difference in future elections? I am a bit terrified to think that people I love really feel this way about other human beings, and are attributing it to race and religion.

Ha, grovel that's hilarious! Part of me (albeit a very small part!) would quite like UKIP to end up in power just so I could see them implode.

I'm starting to think a handful of UKIP MPs giving us voting records to scrutinize etc will be the ideal next development.

TempsPerdu, they both hanker over an imagined past and want to return to it. They will vote in remembrance of things past / lost times.

There is a massive difference between being anti current levels of immigration (sounds potentially a reasonable POV) and being anti-immigration (sounds totally unreasonable and xenophobic) mark

Oooooo grovel see what you did there?

Current levels absolutely. I obviously wouldn't want no one to ever emigrate again

I'm thinking I suppose a system like the one I think Canada have? Where it's fairly strict criteria?

ArsenicFaceCream, there are far too few Proustian references on MN.

Arsenic I was trying to work out if that was intentional too

there are far too few Proustian references on MN.

Nobody is going to argue with that

I'm thinking I suppose a system like the one I think Canada have? Where it's fairly strict criteria?

For none EU migration you mean? Or do you want to leave the EU?

^non EU...

Really, mark? My specialist doctor was an immigrant, in the sense that he moved to the UK to work. He was the only specialist in the area relevant to the health issue I had within travelling distance for me, and I'd have been stuck if he was no longer allowed to stay in the UK, or had never been allowed to come in the first place.

I think a blanket ban on immigration is a very, very complicated area to get into. And I don't think any good could come of it. My situation above is just one of many reasons I would never support a ban on immigration.

I also don't want to leave the EU, I think we stand a better chance of tackling extreme parties such as UKIP, the Front Nationale and the others as a united front (the EU).

Nothing against your opinion by the way mark. I'm less against it myself partly because my career relies on me being able to live abroad and technically be an immigrant myself for extended periods. :)

UKIP are not a racist party.

I really don't know much about the far right groups in the UK now.

I'm white, I was brought up in Southall during the 60's and 70's. It was really scary to find yourself slowly becoming the minority within the street you had known as yours.

It is human nature to react against this change in your home environment.

Political parties need to address this alienation and address the 'why' in racism.

Posters on fora such at these should try and put themselves in the shoes of those who are voting for the Far Right, and ask WHY?

Green all the way. It's the only way of fighting these xenophobic bastards.

I think you are right to be worried, it means you care about your fellow human beings and the future of the UK.

Personally (and I know this is a little radical) I'm of the opinion that in an ideal world, we wouldn't have lines in the sand, pointless little boundaries over which to fight about who owns this, and who owns that. I believe that every citizen of the world is entitled to profit from the riches of the human race, and that we should put a lot more thought into distributing this fairly. As such, whilst I agree that the EU is in somewhat of a pickle understatement at the moment, I think that the basic premise of a collaboration of countries is exactly the route we should be taking, and so I for one will fight tooth and nail not to leave the EU. You can't change something from the outside when you don't have a vote- the only way to effect a decent change is to stay with something and make your voice heard.

And don't get me started on Britain First- I'm not going to be coherent here because I am just too passionate and emotional about it, but they really are following in the footsteps of Oswald Moseley, except with worse grammar. They really are shameless, they claim to be 'protecting this country' in memory of fallen soldiers etc etc, but really have been stealing thousands out of the hands of the British Legion by using the poppy emblem to sell merchandise, and then keeping the cash.

And, to end on a naice, light note, cut those Britain First sharers out, after you've made them realise that they are agreeing with thinly veiled fascism. It is completely beyond me why somebody should be less acceptable to you because of the colour of their skin or where they come from- an aspect of themselves they cannot change. To find someone unacceptable because of their politics, on the other hand, is another matter entirely

And for a giggle, I shall leave you with this:

I never thought I would say this but I am considering voting for UKIP.

Sorry, you won't fit in

What a damn shame.

UKIP will die out, their supporters are on average older, poorer and less educated than the average voter. I would guess why UKIP and further right parties are thriving right now is that the baby boomers have hit late middle age and it is well documented there is a swing to conservatism as you get older especially if you are less educated.

There would always be UKIP voters but at the moment we have a generation of older people who had steady employment in a world where qualifications weren't needed and then have been dumped, they are disenfranchised and feel nobody has their back and they are right. The media furore over UKIP encourages some younger people who want to feel rebellious and part of a counter culture movement but the young in general don't vote UKIP, in 20 years their voters will be dying off and we'll be due a swing to the left anyhow.

Interestingly areas with high immigration eg London boroughs are considerably less likely to vote UKIP, as UKIP said themselves, their voters are predominantly younger and more educated, they also have more money and a higher likelihood of being employed. Whether people choose to blame immigration for their troubles depends on far more than the demographic of where you live. Strangely Londoners don't seem on a political level to be blaming immigration on their school place crisis or their housing waiting lists but someone in say Devon who is presumably far less likely to be impacted heavily by immigration is far more likely to be blaming their personal problems on immigration.

UKIP aren't racist, they have many non white supporters.

The BNP have many non white supporters, is anyone going to deny they are racist. UKIP is institutionally racist, it promotes policies which in their implementation disproportionately disadvantage people from ethnic minorities, the fact they can pull out John and Sarah who happen to be Black, doesn't make them non racist.

Lemondrizzletwunt you would be better stressing the positives of the Green Party like social justice and non-violence rather than descending to name calling legitimate opponents "xenophobic bastards". The more names called, the less respect I have for the name callers.

Our local green councillors are rather good, but I can't see them displacing our hard working Tory MP at the general election. I won't vote Tory, but my vote is unlikely to count given the massive majority he had last time.

Sandberry - I think your analysis is broadly accurate wrt the demographic makeup of many Ukippers. Funnily enough not long ago Matthew Parris wrote a piece recently that expressed similar ideas about the residents of Clacton, who look dead set to vote Douglas Carswell back in on a UKIP ticket in at the by-election soon. Parris' take was basically that white English regional UKIP voting proles have a nasty, cheap, bigoted, dead end, no-hope mindset that will die out in the white hot march of progress and so we should just ignore their political views and crack on with the project.

Needless to say this piece was seized upon by UKIP as a perfect example of the media / political cabal that has disenfranchised large chunks of the electorate so thoroughly already. Tory commentator Parris says we should be ignored! See our point about the LibLabCon and MSM stitch-up! they all said.

I'm not picking on you personally but I think your analysis, while accurate, illustrates a gap in political representation in the UK today that has potentially serious consequences for a functioning democracy. To put it another way, we can't just ignore an entire demographic because we don't like the cut of their jib and we think they're destined for the scrap heap of history. Democracy is supposed to be broadly representative. I think that unless our political system can find a way to give a voice to the poor, the stupid, the undereducated, the bigots and no-hopers who are currently being ignored or insulted from all sides in the hope they die out or go away, then we might as well go back to enfranchising only men and landowners as representative democracy will have become a farce.

I am not happy that the man who is the main suspect for the Alice case is a murderer and was allowed here with no one knowing, and all he had to do was email back home.

I think that's frightening actually. He served three years?For the horrific murder of his wife and then he was perfectly free to start a new life here.

I know people will argue that the Legal System in Lithuania is fair and he served his time and therefore must have been reformed..but still.

I would be very happy with an Canadian system in the UK.

Point taken jchocchip. In a more formal setting I obviously wouldn't be doing this, but sometimes it's just so hard to told in the rage!

You're right, I think it's a sad byproduct of the FPTP system that the Greens will never get a look in, however, I don't think that that means that a green vote counts for nothing. I once had the privilege to live in Brighton, where the local government is Green, and have never lived anywhere else where the electorate were so invested in local policy, and really involved democratically in the decision-making process. I really felt that the constituency was listened to.

But we are not ignoring them, that is what UKIP is for, we'll have a representative democracy and UKIP are a part of that now, they have emerged to represent those who are disenfranchised by other parties. I don't however think other parties should run after the UKIP vote for fear of losing them, I don't think in a representative democracy, the politician follows the electorate. They set out their stall and we vote.

Next year we'll have a (sort of) representative government (though I'd prefer PR) and quite likely they'll be a UKIP politician or 2 or 20 in there. I don't have any objection to that. I don't get to dictate how the rest of the electorate vote, I reserve the right to think they are bigoted, stupid, undereducated, or whatever, but I defend their right to vote for UKIP if they so choose. In 20 years however either UKIP will have moved to the centre right or it will be a marginal party with its voters consigned to the history books. I for one won't be mourning their demise.