WWYD - toddler's friend's parent?

[Oneandonlyone]

My three and a half year old has a best friend. They're in nursery together, they're in dance class together, they're in swim class together. So we see the parents all the time. The little girl is having some mild behaviour issues, and frankly it is all down to parenting. Dad's parenting is all right, pretty good actually, but Mum's getting more unbearable by the moment.

Fine, not everyone has the same parenting style. Maybe she and I are just different. Her personality doesn't really mesh with mine anyway. She's one of these people who has a reason why she won't do anything, is very vocal about it, and wouldn't dare change her mind, however weak the logic behind her argument is. Hey, it happens. She is also into "swatting" her child on the bum as punishment. The kind of parent who when told at nursery that her child has had a very good day, proceeds to announce to the class that "well, she's always bad at home!" Again, not my style but nothing to get bent out of shape about.

Until this past weekend, that is. We were getting changed after swim class with a couple other parents and similarly aged kids. And the slightly tired daughter started disagreeing with her mum and mum went completely off on one. The kid was hysterical, and mum was completely baiting her, almost trying to make her more hysterical. She didn't want to do something, so mum took her crackers away as a kind of random "well, since you won't do what I aksed immediately, then I'm taking your crackers." As the kid got more hysterical, mum proceeded to give all the other kid some of her crackers, telling each kid "you can have some but X can't because she is so terrible." The kids didn't know what to do except take the crackers - they're three, after all. And then Mum kept on ramping it up. When the kid didn't want to go to the toilet, Mum just hauled the screaming hysterical child in there, shut the door and even more hysterical screaming ensued. It just got worse and worse. No attempt at all to calm the child or reassure her or anything except aggravate her. The other mothers and myself just kept looking at each other, silently trying to figure out what to do. To my shame and regret, we did nothing. The mother in question would have turned on us just as badly, and sadly we let it stop us.

So what do we do now? I can't stand this woman anyway, but this has really driven me over the edge. I don't want my kid around her, but it also isn't the daughter's fault that her mum's a loon. I don't want to leave the kid even more isolated or my daughter to lose her best friend. What should we have done on Saturday? Everyone just signed up for the new term so we have classes until Christmas as well. I couldn't deal with this again, much less all those weeks.

For what it is worth, I think dad knows she's not a great parent but has no influence on her in this area at all and has given up. (She above about her reasons (which she will happily state) about why she never changes her behaviour, etc.

Ehric - read the OP's latest post - SS are involved already, and the OP has already spoken to the nursery.

Just skipped back a few (should have done that before posting) well done. That's a great result.

I simply don't understand the response on mumsnet when people describe really horrible parenting of saying 'butt out, don't judge, maybe it's a snapshot' - I wonder if there is an element of defensiveness, from generally good parents who know they have crossed the line once or twice and if anyone had seen it they would have been shocked...? Fwiw I suspect most parents behave badly to their children sometimes but there is a difference between very occasional overreaction due to stress etc and ongoing, sustained, emotionally abusive behaviour.

I think you did the right thing OP but the attitude of the mother backs up my argument that tackling her was useless.
Supporting the father and child is the best thing.

DH only had a chat to the father because they bumped into each other. He didn't know I was going to talk to nursery, etc. They were just walking and General "how's it going?" When the father told him what was happening. I'm really glad that something is being done. And I hope he leaves her because she isn't very nice to either the little girl or the father.

I'm totally one of those parents who completely has had a moment here or there. I think anyone who claims they haven't isn't being honest with themselves. And generally I'm pretty tolerant of other parenting styles, even if they're nothing like mine. But since the behaviour problems magically disappear when the kid is one on one with dad, it isn't a big leap to say that mum's parenting is causing problems for mum and little girl both.

If you can't figure out that saying to someone of any age, much less a three year old, that "you're horrible. Why do you like daddy more than me? You're only good for him to make me angry with you."is unlikely to get the person you're saying it to magically to like you more and behave better for you then maybe you really need to learn the concept of empathy.

Well done your DH, it's good that her Dad has someone to talk to.

Well done Oneandonly, your instincts were spot on. Shame on all of you who thought the way this mother behaved was acceptable.
It takes a lot of courage to report another person.

That is good news op. This thread demonstrates clearly how some posters on AIBU like to have a go at the op just for the hell of it. Like a previous poster said, if this had been a thread saying a husband was treating his wife this way, they'd all be crying LTB.
Hope you're little girl remains friends with the poor kid, sounds like she needs as many people looking out for her as possible.

Mrs Rudy, I think this isn't even about people sniping on aibu (though that of course is true). I think it's about people not having the first clue about what really constitutes abusive behaviour towards children.

150 years ago, it was okay to beat your wife as long as you didn't use a stick thicker than your thumb. nowadays that seems really shocking.

In hopefully only a generation's time, we are going to have the same sense of horror about how it was seen as okay to treat children in this country.

I think every man, woman and child over the age of about 12 should have some basic training in child protection - different types of abuse, signs and symptoms and the roles of various agencies in helping to safeguard children.

I'm really saddened by how many people on this thread thought the behaviour described by the op was within normal limits, and by how many told her to butt out. This is how children fall through the net.

I might even start a thread about it. .

Its unusual for men to share so much with an acquaintance, poor man must be at end of tether.

Yes, greenbananas, the attitude shown on this thread is exactly how children slip through the net.

It seems that many people turn the other way unless they see something really horrific. Well it's a bit late by then isn't it? How many months/ years go by before a child shows actual physical or mental signs of ongoing abuse and ss are finally involved? By then too much damage has been done. Or at worst a child dies because no one wanted to 'poke their nose in'.

Of course I'm not suggesting that the situation on this thread is as serious as that but ultimately, most cases of serious child abuse start from fairly low key incidents and gradually escalate over time so the potential is there for it to become more serious when you witness emotional abuse such as this.

This is why, when you attend any child protection training course, you are told never to ignore a hunch or something small. If it doesn't feel right, it very often isn't.

I think what the op described on this thread is classed as serious child abuse - and it looks like social services agree.

The key phrase is "significant harm". okay, so withholding food, neglect, beating, and sexual abuse are more obviously harm-causing to most people. .. But all experts and thinking lay people agree that continually telling a child that he or she is rubbish, naughty, thick, whatever is also also likely to cause very significant harm.

Children live up to the expectations we have of them. If we tell them that they are smart, clever, funny, hardworking etc then that is what they will become. If we tell them they are stupid, naughty, hopeless, unlikeable and generally awful, then they will become that, just to please us! and then they will probably grow up into hopeless, disaffected adults who don't believe they can succeed in anything and prefer benefits and the bottle to even a respectable career in refuse collection.

This little girl deserves better than being told she is rubbish, as her father clearly agrees.

I wish more people like the op had the wit and insight to make the right call when they see children being emotionally abused, deprived of the right to fulfil their potential in life and condemned to a life of feeling unhappy and worthless.

I'm glad the family are being looked into and I'm glad the father felt able to talk to your DP too - if I were you I would encourage that friendship, he is going to need all the support he can get, whatever happens.

Absolutely agree that OP has received unwarranted slagging off on here for being a judgemental busybody. I wonder how horrific a situation would have to be for some people to get involved rather than turn a blind eye. Severe abuse does not just happen. It starts and escalates, because the abuser has no sense of normal boundaries and what is acceptable.

Thank goodness that SS is involved and her dad is wanting to do the right thing by his dd, I was really shocked at how people were so dismissive of the mother's attitude!

Yes greenbananas you are right. It's like unless someone's leaving a viable mark on a child we should turn the other cheek. Emotional abuse can be as long lasting as physical.

Longer lasting, I'd say in most cases (barring disfigurement/induced disability) - as Tim Minchin sings "sticks and stones may break your bones but names will break your heart". :(

Emotional abuse at this level at such a young age has the power to scar the child for life, or at least until they can get to see a good therapist who can helpthem re-set their core beliefs about themselves.

Oh gosh, OP, I got tired with all the people who condemned you for worrying about this poor wee child. And, yes, most of us have had the embarrassment of dealing with a small child's tantrum in public, but really you sound very sweet to me, you are concerned about the constant putdowns and I would be too.

And I am afraid I have no advice apart from encouraging the father to LTB and take his daughter with him. Your dd probably won't suffer if she is with that family, apart from seeing how her bf is being treated because she will be held up as a paragon of virtue.

While my child might be held up as a paragon of virtue by the mother, I wouldn't want heron such an environment. Partly because while, depending on the phase of the moon, she's pretty well behaved I genuinely don't think she's any better or worse than the other girl. They're both normal three and a half year olds.
But even having her set up as the paragon concerns me. First, I don't think it creates healthy dynamic between the close friends. They're smart kids. A few months back a different child managed to bite mine three times at nursery. Nursery staff started watching him like a hawk so they could play together but not have the biting. Within a week there were incidents of mine being asked "who did this?" "Bitey Boy" on days when he wasn't even in nursery! I think it is too easy to set up a situation where even she is putting down her best friend because that's what the mother is modelling to her.

And I also, for similar reasons, don't want her to witness any more incidents like what happened in the swim change. I would be concerned that such a situation would happen again and my daughter could also be a victim of what was going on quite easily.

If Mum wasn't going to be there I wouldn't have any concerns.