WWYD - toddler's friend's parent?

[Oneandonlyone]

My three and a half year old has a best friend. They're in nursery together, they're in dance class together, they're in swim class together. So we see the parents all the time. The little girl is having some mild behaviour issues, and frankly it is all down to parenting. Dad's parenting is all right, pretty good actually, but Mum's getting more unbearable by the moment.

Fine, not everyone has the same parenting style. Maybe she and I are just different. Her personality doesn't really mesh with mine anyway. She's one of these people who has a reason why she won't do anything, is very vocal about it, and wouldn't dare change her mind, however weak the logic behind her argument is. Hey, it happens. She is also into "swatting" her child on the bum as punishment. The kind of parent who when told at nursery that her child has had a very good day, proceeds to announce to the class that "well, she's always bad at home!" Again, not my style but nothing to get bent out of shape about.

Until this past weekend, that is. We were getting changed after swim class with a couple other parents and similarly aged kids. And the slightly tired daughter started disagreeing with her mum and mum went completely off on one. The kid was hysterical, and mum was completely baiting her, almost trying to make her more hysterical. She didn't want to do something, so mum took her crackers away as a kind of random "well, since you won't do what I aksed immediately, then I'm taking your crackers." As the kid got more hysterical, mum proceeded to give all the other kid some of her crackers, telling each kid "you can have some but X can't because she is so terrible." The kids didn't know what to do except take the crackers - they're three, after all. And then Mum kept on ramping it up. When the kid didn't want to go to the toilet, Mum just hauled the screaming hysterical child in there, shut the door and even more hysterical screaming ensued. It just got worse and worse. No attempt at all to calm the child or reassure her or anything except aggravate her. The other mothers and myself just kept looking at each other, silently trying to figure out what to do. To my shame and regret, we did nothing. The mother in question would have turned on us just as badly, and sadly we let it stop us.

So what do we do now? I can't stand this woman anyway, but this has really driven me over the edge. I don't want my kid around her, but it also isn't the daughter's fault that her mum's a loon. I don't want to leave the kid even more isolated or my daughter to lose her best friend. What should we have done on Saturday? Everyone just signed up for the new term so we have classes until Christmas as well. I couldn't deal with this again, much less all those weeks.

For what it is worth, I think dad knows she's not a great parent but has no influence on her in this area at all and has given up. (She above about her reasons (which she will happily state) about why she never changes her behaviour, etc.

Who was your last post directed to GB? Me? I'm confident I have not crossed that line.

Speak to the dad. He seems sensible? At the end of the day you need to shift responsibility for sorting this out on to him. Let him be the one to talk to mum.

Trauma in childhood doesn't necessarily reveal itself in 'childhood', it can be in the distant future, again though that's a generalised point not directed at you.

OP, you can help this child by ringing NSPCC if it happens in a public place again as a member of the public in theory could do the same and take her number plate if she drives. Is she loud, perhaps the neighbours may hear her?

The trouble is that if the mum constantly refers to the child in a negative fashion and constantly berates her, the child is going to absorb that message and accept that she is "horrible" and that she can't do anything right. So she's going to keep going the way she's going, because she's not being helped to do anything better.

And frankly, the cracker episode is the sort of thing that an abusive mother would do.

No the 'line' was in response to the poster who said three year olds can behave very badly. Sorry, it's late , I can't see their post anymore. No, no, I'm sure no lines have been crossed, apologies for misunderstanding I was discussing the 'subject'.

Yes, the cracker thing is awful!

The cracker thing is awful, as is saying "x is good, why aren't you", etc. But call SS over it? Seriously?

I would attempt to difuse the situation with " it can be so stressful, can't it? When they get so tired and don't know what to do, hard to remember they're so little" or something.

Fwiw I can't believe people think it's cruel to separate a three year old! When my DS was that age I'd put him in his room when he was having a tantrum and tell him "I know you're upset, come out when it's all out of your system and we'll talk about it."

It's hard to know what you can do really. This woman could obviously use some parenting lessons or support though - would she be open to that? As part of the parenting group I'm in, I ran a series of parenting classes / lectures for members focusing exactly on issues like this: how to use positive discipline, managing a spirited child, exercising better self control as a parent etc. Lots of people told me they found it really helpful especially as the talks were offered as part of the group's social calendar so there was no need to feel put on the spot about going.

Otherwise I'm not sure what you can do. It's poor parenting but not dire to the point where it would raise red flags and social services are overloaded anyway so it's unlikely something like this would be a priority. Maybe just be thankful that this little girl has her dad to be kind to her at least.

There is a mother in our parenting group who has slowly been isolated from the group for these reasons too. She shouts at her DD (also 3) all the time and has this hysterical parenting style that is painful to watch. I tried to reach out to her a bit but she was extremely hard to talk to as well, just as you describe this woman. Very strong views on everything, would start an argument in an empty room etc. Most group members just avoided her and stopped inviting her DD to play dates. It was sad to see but she was extremely difficult to deal with, very resistant to any advice or help. Maybe just keep reaching out via the dad so you can keep an eye on the little girl?

Oh please, we all judge - if we didn't mumsnet wouldn't exist. I certainly would judge this woman. Her parenting style would be off putting enough to my own sensibility that I'd steer clear of doing things that would put you in a 1:1/close contact situation with her while still welcoming the child to parties, play dates etc. There is nothing you can do to change the woman but you can be a positive person in the girls life.

OP is really fielding some bitchy comments here.

Child Safeguarding is everybody's business. The mother, for whatever reason, abused her child and a group of adults stood by and did nothing. They could have tried to defuse the situation without criticizing the mum but didn't.

The OP or another witness could report their concerns to a teacher, social services etc anonymously if needed.

I would start to put some space between my DC and this child outside of school but if I saw a repeat of the abuse I would report the matter.

How many people ignored the abuse that cost Baby P"s etc life?

Taking someone's crackers and calling them naughty is nowhere near the Baby P case.

I am amazed at some of the reactions to OP! Maybe she was being judgemental- aren't we all? It is very poor parenting but very common. I don't see what you can do, except be nice to the child and distance yourself from the mother.

repeatedly belittling a child and telling them they are incapable of being good IS emotionally abusive. This was very clear in the safeguarding training I did recently.

of course it's true that social workers are busy, but this is not an excuse for doing nothing. This little girl probably doesn't meet the (very high) threshold for intervention, but it should still be called in.

Maybe this mum could be required to go on a parenting course of some sort, or have some family support. sounds like the dad would welcome that with open arms.

A suggestion that she could go on a course would be a good one. I don't see how she can be forced. I think it appalling parenting- but it is very common. Swimming pools appear to bring out the worst in people- I can think of two incidences that I have overheard in swimming pools which are just as bad.

I'm amazed at the hostility ops getting here.
Were I you I'd avoid as much as possible- eg hoody towel and into the car after swimming- and big up the daughter as much as possible. Do they live near? Could you ever collect and deliver the DD rather than have to do collections with the mother? It might be easier to drop and swoop rather than do things along side the mother.
FWIW it is a big deal. Not just for safeguarding concerns but because your DD will start to notice their behaviour and either copy it or be upset on her friend's behalf.

CheerfulYank, putting a 3 year old in a room in isolation for a tantrum is considered outdated - it is not just my 'personal' opinion, it is evidently an 'early years' professional opinion as when looking for a nursery for my 3 year old I found that nurseries do not have these punishments for the reasons I gave in my earlier post. I even found this to be the case four years ago when I was looking for my now 7 year old!

I think it is naive to think events that happen in isolation are not part of a bigger picture - she is behaving in an abusive way and it could be a lot worse at home. Her DH sounds pretty ineffectual tbh, perhaps she is the same with him?

in my experience (3 kids) I would distance from them. you cannot influence the way she parents and unless it is outright cruelty, nobody is going to do anything about it. it may well be that she is like this in certain stressful situations but a loving parent at other times.

i had a friend who i ended up distancing myself from because of her extreme behaviour in my view. her son has grown up fine and they have a good relationship. i could not bear the shouty parent she was when he was a toddler. but then again i had a shouty dad and maybe i found it harder than anybody else.

I'm really shocked at some responses on her to the mothers abusive parenting.

Honestly thought we were moving past that as a society.

What her mother is doing to her is as bad as hitting, as bad as neglect.

Telling her child that she's awful
All the time, that all other children are better than her, undermining her feelings and goading her into hysteria is going to make her an anxious, frightened adult who's going to have real difficulties.

It isn't about judging her or calling her names, it is about saying to the kids teacher, the HV, social services (someone!) that she's clearly struggling and that her behaviour is abusive.

Goldenbear your posts are spot on

And Laurie.

I wonder if some of the hostile responses are from people who practice such parenting.

If they are...flame me if you want but please don't parent like that, have seen the damage it can do.

Many things are outdated or have been considered outdated that aren't "wrong", Golden.

I'm not condoning this mother at all. It breaks my heart that there is a little person out there being spoken to like this.

However, in itself, I don't believe isolating a three year old until he or she calms down is wrong. For some children, that would intensify the situation and make it worse. For others, it doesn't. With my son, I wanted him to know that he had every right to feel angry and upset and express himself how he chose, but not necessarily in the middle of the living room. Learning to calm down and that you can't scream and thrash around when you don't get your way are not outdated lessons- at least I hope not.

It worked for my son, and if it works for my DD when she's 3, or for my still-gestating DC3, I'll do it then too.

A huge proportion of parents are similar- I can't see how you report them all to SS- they would be inundated! I can go into town and see similar any day of the week!

Cheerfully Yank taking crackers and saying a child is naughty isn't abuse but goading and physically forcing child into/onto toilet is. Abuse often starts small and escalates. The child deserves better

Astonished that someone concerned over the mistreatment of a small child (several examples given) is labelled judgey and bitchy.

She sounds dreadful op. Agree with Delphiniums though, be nice to the child, distance yourself from the mum and if this continues speak to nursery teachers. Poor kid.

YANBU! There is a huge difference between taking a treat away from a child as punishment and deliberately giving that treat to other children while telling the upset one how good they are compared to her. Telling everyone that she's naughty even as they are saying she's been good, as at nursery, is just plain cruel.

This mother was presumably parented in a similar way herself and doesn't realise how damaging her behaviour is, but that doesn't make it okay. The child needs some protection from this undoubted emotional abuse. I just hope the father can provide it.