WWYD - toddler's friend's parent?

[Oneandonlyone]

My three and a half year old has a best friend. They're in nursery together, they're in dance class together, they're in swim class together. So we see the parents all the time. The little girl is having some mild behaviour issues, and frankly it is all down to parenting. Dad's parenting is all right, pretty good actually, but Mum's getting more unbearable by the moment.

Fine, not everyone has the same parenting style. Maybe she and I are just different. Her personality doesn't really mesh with mine anyway. She's one of these people who has a reason why she won't do anything, is very vocal about it, and wouldn't dare change her mind, however weak the logic behind her argument is. Hey, it happens. She is also into "swatting" her child on the bum as punishment. The kind of parent who when told at nursery that her child has had a very good day, proceeds to announce to the class that "well, she's always bad at home!" Again, not my style but nothing to get bent out of shape about.

Until this past weekend, that is. We were getting changed after swim class with a couple other parents and similarly aged kids. And the slightly tired daughter started disagreeing with her mum and mum went completely off on one. The kid was hysterical, and mum was completely baiting her, almost trying to make her more hysterical. She didn't want to do something, so mum took her crackers away as a kind of random "well, since you won't do what I aksed immediately, then I'm taking your crackers." As the kid got more hysterical, mum proceeded to give all the other kid some of her crackers, telling each kid "you can have some but X can't because she is so terrible." The kids didn't know what to do except take the crackers - they're three, after all. And then Mum kept on ramping it up. When the kid didn't want to go to the toilet, Mum just hauled the screaming hysterical child in there, shut the door and even more hysterical screaming ensued. It just got worse and worse. No attempt at all to calm the child or reassure her or anything except aggravate her. The other mothers and myself just kept looking at each other, silently trying to figure out what to do. To my shame and regret, we did nothing. The mother in question would have turned on us just as badly, and sadly we let it stop us.

So what do we do now? I can't stand this woman anyway, but this has really driven me over the edge. I don't want my kid around her, but it also isn't the daughter's fault that her mum's a loon. I don't want to leave the kid even more isolated or my daughter to lose her best friend. What should we have done on Saturday? Everyone just signed up for the new term so we have classes until Christmas as well. I couldn't deal with this again, much less all those weeks.

For what it is worth, I think dad knows she's not a great parent but has no influence on her in this area at all and has given up. (She above about her reasons (which she will happily state) about why she never changes her behaviour, etc.

It sounds like emotional abuse to me and I would share your concerns with nursery. Or report her to SS/NSPCC yourself.

The nursery teachers can help, if you tell them about what you have seen, and the way you have seen this mum continually labelling her child as naughty - they will all have been trained in sageguarding / child protection and will recognise this as emotional abuse. They probably have concerns already, so you will be helping by adding to the picture, maybe spurring them on to get some serious help for the family.

I'm only suggesting telling the teachers because it might be easier for you than calling social services directly yourself. But I think you should do that too.

If this little girl is subjected to hearing these negative things about herself day after day, it will cause her significant harm. The sooner the family gets help, the better.

As for those sayings it is none of your business

Hmm, I think this is one of those situations where you're struggling to describe the situation and how bad it is. Many of us have had days where we deal with tantrums in less than ideal ways and there are just people who deal with tantrums completely differently as a matter of course. My Dsis probably is a little shocked at the way I deal with tantrums, because she tends to placate while I just move the child to a different room and tell them not to come back until they're ready to behave.
Could this just be a case of very different styles?

... Child protection is everyone's business ' is a community responsibility. If social services investigate and find that all is okay, then great, but I do think you shouldcall it in if you're this worried. Definitely tell the nurseryteachers.

My kid has definitely had meltdowns in public. Hasn't every three year old? My response wasn't to keep antagonising the kid!

This is how she usually deals with her daughter's behaviour, but usually dad is around to intervene and keep everything from getting too far out of hand. My gut says this went as far as it did because while dad was only outside, he wasn't going to venture into the ladies locker room!

At this point I just wouldn't feel comfortable leaving my daughter in their care without me being there. I would happily leave her with dad and daughter, but not the mum. Plus when we have been there there's a sweet drawer that the whole family just constantly munch out of (since nursery feed them ok all week, it doesn't matter what she eats when she's at home is the rationale) so DD comes home rampaging on sugar, and then has the inevitable crash.

But this is not just how she dealt with a tantrum, the OP has explained how she is constantly talking about her in a derogatory way- it is not acceptable way to treat such a vulnerable, small individual.

I can't believe people think this behaviour 'shouldn't be judged. If the Father can be civil and decent with the same child it is obviously 'Not' that bad. The problem is clearly with the Mother's inability to be a decent parent and decent person!

(And yes, the crisp thing is weird, but it is just one of many, many, many examples where "that's what I've decided and I'm sticking with it, don't even bother arguing with me." has been given about why she doesn't need to change anything about herself at all.)

Yanbu. I read the first bit with rolling eyes because other than the hittingswatting on the bum it sounds like nothing.

Then you describe the horrible behaviour at the swimming pool which is abusive and yes, you should have intervened. If you'd just posted about that I think you would have got a different reaction on this thread. You don't sound horrible, you sound normal and human.

As to what to do, well if it ever happens again like that step in. Please. Even if it's just a "I'm taking her to the cafe with dd while you calm down.". I fear nobody on here is equipped to tell you it won't happen again or why she behaved like that. It could be that she is really struggling with the normal (yet bloody awful) trials of parenting a three year old and you saw the straw that broke the camel's back or it could be that she is emotionally abusing her daughter at home and you saw a snapshot of what usually goes on behind closed doors. Who knows?

I'd call NSPCC's helpline and talk to them. It may be worth chatting to the health visitor or the person responsible for safe guarding at the nursery but please don't do nothing. There's either a child who needs help or a mother. Or both.

FFS, this is child abuse now??? Some people need to get a grip here, seriously. It is NOT abusive to tell a tantrumming 3 year old that they are being naughty. Some families have stricter discipline than others - I think you might find that kids who grow up in strict environments actually achieve a lot more in life. Fair enough if it is not for you as a parent, but to label a whole parenting approach as abusive is ridiculous.

I'm shocked at the concept that SS would have the remotest interest in this.

Oh and the sweet drawer? You just sound like you are itching to judge.

There are definitely good and terrible ways of dealing with children though. Equally, where do you draw the line. I would never exclude a 3 year old until they felt they were ready to return - it is not an age appropriate method, just confusing and consequently quite cruel. This is another level though. If it was me I wouldn't be able to not say something to her. Why are you scared of her?

Less scared than experience shows that she is expert in just shutting it all down. See crisps weirdness above. Doesn't matter what it is, she has an opinion (hey, don't we all) and that's what she is sticking with. You just get shouted and shut down.

If she had told the daughter having the tantrum she was being naughty, I don't think I'd care so much. But she never actually said that. Just kept goading her and goading her. "Do you need to go to the toilet?" "Noooooo!" (In hysterical, toddler lost control fearful way, as toddlers do.) So she just shouts at her and puts her in the toilet, keeps shouting, kids screaming gets more and more hysterical and panicked, they finally come out, Mum even madder because she didn't do a wee while mum was screaming at her, then cue and repeat for shower, getting dressed, etc. it continued to escalate for about twenty minutes and in no way settled until outside in corridor with hysterical, sobbing child got soothed by dad, and mum says to him "you know what she's like."

NSPCC? Jeeeez.

Oh, and the sweet drawer? Not a dealbreaker in any way if I thought my daughter would be safe otherwise.

PrimaFacie, how can you argue it is 'not' abuse, is this the way you treat your children? Did you not read the rest of the details, that explained how this woman is constantly calling her child 'naughty'? It is ABUSIVE.

You are talking out of your arse about strict environments and achievement - people are successful in life when they have high self esteem and are extremely self confident- do you really think that this environment will produce that kind of person??? My parents were not strict, no smacking, no put downs and constant negativity, in fact the opposite, I have an MA and my brother is a senior partner in a City law firm- I think your theory is flawed!!

Ooh, you're such a great mum. There, do you feel validated now?

I'm saying this as a mum of two wonderfully behaved kids. Your judginess really stinks.

I am shocked that people think this is Not abuse- I thought these views went out with the ark ages.

How hard can it be to exercise some self control with the discipline of one 3 year old. If she only has one child to deal with, she has all the time in the world to improve her mothering skills.

Erm, what's wrong with calling the NSPCC for advice mamababa? They don't snatch children you know

Golden bear, are you confusing anecdote and data?

some families are negative, some are positive, some use punishment, others use rewards; there is not a single way to parent a child.

No, I don't parent my children that way, but equally it does not strike me as abusive at all.

Ps what firm's your bro? I'm a partner at a City law firm, too :)

I know I'm a 'good' Mother but that's because I'm generally a 'good' person with a moral compass- id never be seeking validation for that from someone who exhibited views such as yours.

Well behaved children are great but I wouldn't want to achieve that by any means!

Yeah right you are and as if I'd tell you?

There is right and wrong in anything including how someone behaves as a parent.

Goldenbear my post above was to the OP, not to you.

Okay then . Feel free to invoke your imaginary brother whenever it furthers your argument, but cast doubt over any suggestion that another poster may be equally qualified.

You are not selling this whole 'no discipline' parenting too well, I have to say.

On which night night - will pick up tomorrow.

I think it is extremely worrying that anyone would describe this as:
a) not abusive and b) an acceptable way to treat a 3 year old.