WWYD - toddler's friend's parent?

[Oneandonlyone]

My three and a half year old has a best friend. They're in nursery together, they're in dance class together, they're in swim class together. So we see the parents all the time. The little girl is having some mild behaviour issues, and frankly it is all down to parenting. Dad's parenting is all right, pretty good actually, but Mum's getting more unbearable by the moment.

Fine, not everyone has the same parenting style. Maybe she and I are just different. Her personality doesn't really mesh with mine anyway. She's one of these people who has a reason why she won't do anything, is very vocal about it, and wouldn't dare change her mind, however weak the logic behind her argument is. Hey, it happens. She is also into "swatting" her child on the bum as punishment. The kind of parent who when told at nursery that her child has had a very good day, proceeds to announce to the class that "well, she's always bad at home!" Again, not my style but nothing to get bent out of shape about.

Until this past weekend, that is. We were getting changed after swim class with a couple other parents and similarly aged kids. And the slightly tired daughter started disagreeing with her mum and mum went completely off on one. The kid was hysterical, and mum was completely baiting her, almost trying to make her more hysterical. She didn't want to do something, so mum took her crackers away as a kind of random "well, since you won't do what I aksed immediately, then I'm taking your crackers." As the kid got more hysterical, mum proceeded to give all the other kid some of her crackers, telling each kid "you can have some but X can't because she is so terrible." The kids didn't know what to do except take the crackers - they're three, after all. And then Mum kept on ramping it up. When the kid didn't want to go to the toilet, Mum just hauled the screaming hysterical child in there, shut the door and even more hysterical screaming ensued. It just got worse and worse. No attempt at all to calm the child or reassure her or anything except aggravate her. The other mothers and myself just kept looking at each other, silently trying to figure out what to do. To my shame and regret, we did nothing. The mother in question would have turned on us just as badly, and sadly we let it stop us.

So what do we do now? I can't stand this woman anyway, but this has really driven me over the edge. I don't want my kid around her, but it also isn't the daughter's fault that her mum's a loon. I don't want to leave the kid even more isolated or my daughter to lose her best friend. What should we have done on Saturday? Everyone just signed up for the new term so we have classes until Christmas as well. I couldn't deal with this again, much less all those weeks.

For what it is worth, I think dad knows she's not a great parent but has no influence on her in this area at all and has given up. (She above about her reasons (which she will happily state) about why she never changes her behaviour, etc.

It's a moment in time and 3 year olds push buttons. If the nspcc/ss/police were called every time a child was shouted at or told they were naughty then god help us all

The trouble is Goldenbear that none of us has seen any of these reported incidents and we don't know the OP. For all we know the OP could be the one who's a bit of a loon and totally blowing these stories out of proportion because she has her judgey pants pulled up so high they are blinding her.

The other Mum doesn't sound like she's going to win any awards, but I don't see anything here that is a clear-cut case of abuse either. It's all just too subjective.

You don't like the way I deal with tantrums and I'm sure if you had something against me (and knew me IRL) you could make me sound awful if you put your mind to it. I could probably make my sister sound like an absolute molly-coddling flake of a parent if I so chose as well.

We have no way of knowing, so I think it's very unwise to throw around such serious and loaded labels such as abuse.

I'll admit to very occasionally dragging a screeching 3 year old to the loo and plonking him on it. But only if I'm certain he needs to go and he's flatly refusing, and we're about to leave somewhere so I know he'll wet himself in the car or on the bus otherwise. I'm sure this isn't the ideal way to deal with it, but what the heck can you do in that situation?

Also I'm far my likely to overreact and deal with things badly if I feel I'm being watched and judged.

Oh give over. The NSPCC is not the same as police or SS. Not even close to the same thing!

You don't know it was a moment in time any more than we do. It could have been but equally might not have been.

OP, if this sort of thing happens regularly I think you do need to mention it to someone - nursery staff?

Dealing with the odd tantrum badly - normal, no one is perfect.

Repeatedly putting your child down and purposely winding them up into such a state (You say this went on for 20mins?? ) - warning signs. How does she behave at home if she acts like this when out?

Your dislike of this woman could cloud your judgement somewhat. Can you talk to one of the other mums and see if they feel similar about her behaviour?

mamababa, what the OP is describing cannot be dismissed as "a moment in time". The swimming pool incident is clearly the latest in a long line of escalating incidents.

Just seems a bit of a coincidence??

Please remind me where I advocated 'no discipline'- oh that's right I didn't!

I can't believe anyone in 2014 could argue that consistently responding to your child in a negative way is a valid discipline tool- just as worthy as disciplining them in a positive way. Please elaborate on that one PrimaFacie I'm really intrigued as to how that works? I just don't believe you when you say you know of well adjusted, successful children where they have been brought up in this way, it just flies against all the research out there. Children will live up or down to the expectations you have of them. If you are constantly negative towards them they will come to believe this of themselves. Please explain how this produces a successful, well adjusted adult as it sounds totally illogical and unbelievable!

How does she behave at home if she acts like this when out?

I, for one, am much more chilled at home than I am in public. My boys save all their worst behaviour for when we're out and about.

Funny, I would have thought a City law partner a) might have more self reflection to see just how much they're projecting onto this thread and b) could read for comprehension at any point. I've pointed out several times, including in the OP that there are different parenting styles, I know that, and I accept that. That isn't a problem. I also freely admitted that after a year of dealing with her, my tolerance for her is low and I'm pretty bitchy about her. So Primafacie's reaction has been to be judgey as hell from the get go, and of course wildly hypocritical in constantly calling me the same. Now she's in some sort of bun fight about people advocating a no discipline approach. Except that no one is advocating that. But it is a handy straw man for her to continue to be judgy and dismissive, and keep making things up (such as before when she claimed the issue was that telling a tantrumming child they were being naughty isn't abuse. Except, of course, again no one had claimed such a thing.

When I trained in the City, reading comprehension was a valuable skill.

Oh FGS there are always the same apologists on here aren't there - bleating away about "struggling" and different parenting styles and how simply awful it is to be judgey

There's probably not much you can do but the woman sounds horrendous. Judge away. Sometimes it's fine and right to judge. Poor little girl :(

My aunt is a social worker and has had children on her caseload who have been sat on heated oven tops as a punishment, hit with the buckle end of belts, starved,made to eat their own shit.Please do not pull social workers who are already groaning under an impossible workload ,away to deal with things like this.

Ok fair enough maybe not be a one-off. Who knows? But the OP sounds like she dislikes this woman and it's her way or no way. 'The DD has mild behavioural issues and, frankly, it's down to poor parenting'
Who made her judge and jury in such a sweeping statement? This mum doesn't sound great, but Jesus are we all perfect all the time? The OP has no idea what that child is like at home. But if it was that bad why did she not help her friend (after all not a stranger at the swimming pool) by saying 'hey stressed mum, you're scaring DD, you're obviously upset, let me take her 10 mins'
No, I'll bitch about you on the internet. Nice.

If a man treats a woman in a similar manner it's "LT abusive bastard!!!"

A parent doing it to a child, it's "She's probably struggling" etc

The other mums have been chatting about it a bit, but don't encounter her outside of swimming class so don't have anything other than that day (the child usually swims and changes with dad) to really paint the full picture. I've held off saying anything to them as I don't want to poison that well. But certainly at nursery, the other mums avoid her, and sadly her kid doesn't get invited to many of the parties, etc. There could be other reasons for that though as well.

It's not just that I don't like it Surfsup1, it's that there is loads of research out there to say that discipling a 3 year old by leaving them on their own in a room is more harmful than helpful, that is why nurseries don't use this method anymore. A three year old has to have responsive discipline so they can be guided on appropriate behaviour. They simply do not have the ability to learn from that self reflection so it is cruel because it is very confusing and frustrating for them. You may deem interaction over problems as placating and 'flakey' but you'd be wrong, it is much more helpful to be responsive in the long term.

Yep, very fair point surfsup.

But the OP mentions how this mum always says how naughty the girl is at home too. It just doesn't sound like a normal way for a mum to be, even with a challenging 3 year old! You just don't put your own child down constantly. Or any child for that matter. All just sounds quite sad for the little girl.

YANBU. Sometimes parents lose their cool. I could imagine coping poorly with a screaming toddler and shouting something at the toddler like "shut up and do as you're told". But, this parent sounds truly vindictive - giving out the toddler's own biscuits to all the other children and rubbing it in? That's just mean. It practically sounds like she's enjoying her toddler's emotional distress.

You have to say something next time something like this happens. At very least, show the poor little kid that someone cares. Or, say something to the father and/or the nursery. I certainly wouldn't let my LO be supervised by such people.

Flicktuck, that's not really the answer though is it. The Social Workers have to deal with these horrific scenarios so lets just over look the continuous emotional abuse of a 3 year old! This country is in the dark ages when it comes the protection of children.

Amazingly, though Goldenbear it worked brilliantly for me! My boys learned very quickly that tantruming was not the way to get my attention and they learned to use words to express themselves. I would say that I only had to do it 3 or so times.

My nieces also don't throw tantrums for me, yet they continue to tantrum like banshees for my sister. They were also causing terrible issues for my Mum who cares for them 2 days per week. She asked me why I don't get the same thing from them and I explained. She gave it a go and voila - the tantrums stopped.

So for me the proof is in the pudding. I don't feel the need to look for research to tell me that my technique doesn't work when it has already worked.

You may deem interaction over problems as placating and 'flakey' but you'd be wrong

I didn't. I said I could if I wanted to cast my sister in a bad light just as the OP could be casting the "bad" mum in a bad light. My point is that you can take normal yet non-ideal parenting situations, group them together and make it sound like there are serious problems when there really are none. I think my sister is a great mum FYI.

" But if it was that bad why did she not help her friend (after all not a stranger at the swimming pool) by saying 'hey stressed mum, you're scaring DD, you're obviously upset, let me take her 10 mins' No, I'll bitch about you on the internet. Nice."

Maybe that didn't happen because of OP's experience of this woman (who is not, incidentally, her friend, but the mother of her daughter's friend) - and I quote -

"We've offered the break for a couple hours multiple times. She won't take it. From anyone. They have (by their admission) been out once as a couple without her since she was born. If we have the little girl over for a play date, both parents come the whole time. This didn't seem unusual when they were about to turn two and didn't know us well, now it just makes it hard for us to keep inviting the little girl to play."

"And seriously, talking to her about anything just gets you shouted down."

Personally, the bit I find the most disturbing is :

"When we do have play dates, there's a lot of "Oneandonly is being good? Why can't you be good? You're just a very naughty girl, aren't you. You couldn't be good if you tried." "
This woman is constantly telling this girl she is naughty. What is that going to do to her head?

There are lots of ways to achieve the end result of a non tantrumming child - it doesn't make them all right. A child can be traumatised by an experience that has an impact on the rest of their lives- I'm not saying in your particular case but it is easily done.

TBF to your sister the children may be naturally better behaved in your presence because you're not their familiar 'Mum'? I have nieces and nephews that behave much better with me than their own parents. Equally, you may be the 'scary' aunt- this is not necessarily a good thing.

I'll take scary Aunt over the tantrums ANY day!

I actually have a wonderful relationship with my nieces and they regularly ask to come to my house and we have wonderful conversations about fairies and princesses which I don't get with my boys. Funnily enough my eldest isn't too keen on going to DSis's house because he gets upset that her youngest behaves badly and no one makes her stop.

FWIW, my boys are now 5 and 7 and show no signs of trauma from learning early that I don't accept tantrums nor do my nieces. My sister, on the other hand, looks terribly traumatised by living with a 4 and 6 year old who still regularly put on spectacular displays to get their own way.

I'm sure there are horrible ways to make children stop tantruming - I'm confident that my way isn't one of them.

Three year olds are not adults, they behave according to their age. It is up to 'adults' to adjust their reaction to the situation and exercise some self - discipline, there is never an excuse to cross that line, like there isn't when women (men) are abused by their partners.

"When we do have play dates, there's a lot of "Oneandonly is being good? Why can't you be good? You're just a very naughty girl, aren't you. You couldn't be good if you tried."

I have to say that I missed this snippet- if that had been in the original post, in fact if that had been the entirety of the original post then I think the OP's point would have been made much more clearly.

That's a pretty vile thing to say to a child. I still wouldn't call Chid Services, though, I would confront eh mother directly and say that speaking to her daughter like that was just nasty. I would then speak with her DH and explain that the Mum was really in need of some parenting education.