WWYD - toddler's friend's parent?

[Oneandonlyone]

My three and a half year old has a best friend. They're in nursery together, they're in dance class together, they're in swim class together. So we see the parents all the time. The little girl is having some mild behaviour issues, and frankly it is all down to parenting. Dad's parenting is all right, pretty good actually, but Mum's getting more unbearable by the moment.

Fine, not everyone has the same parenting style. Maybe she and I are just different. Her personality doesn't really mesh with mine anyway. She's one of these people who has a reason why she won't do anything, is very vocal about it, and wouldn't dare change her mind, however weak the logic behind her argument is. Hey, it happens. She is also into "swatting" her child on the bum as punishment. The kind of parent who when told at nursery that her child has had a very good day, proceeds to announce to the class that "well, she's always bad at home!" Again, not my style but nothing to get bent out of shape about.

Until this past weekend, that is. We were getting changed after swim class with a couple other parents and similarly aged kids. And the slightly tired daughter started disagreeing with her mum and mum went completely off on one. The kid was hysterical, and mum was completely baiting her, almost trying to make her more hysterical. She didn't want to do something, so mum took her crackers away as a kind of random "well, since you won't do what I aksed immediately, then I'm taking your crackers." As the kid got more hysterical, mum proceeded to give all the other kid some of her crackers, telling each kid "you can have some but X can't because she is so terrible." The kids didn't know what to do except take the crackers - they're three, after all. And then Mum kept on ramping it up. When the kid didn't want to go to the toilet, Mum just hauled the screaming hysterical child in there, shut the door and even more hysterical screaming ensued. It just got worse and worse. No attempt at all to calm the child or reassure her or anything except aggravate her. The other mothers and myself just kept looking at each other, silently trying to figure out what to do. To my shame and regret, we did nothing. The mother in question would have turned on us just as badly, and sadly we let it stop us.

So what do we do now? I can't stand this woman anyway, but this has really driven me over the edge. I don't want my kid around her, but it also isn't the daughter's fault that her mum's a loon. I don't want to leave the kid even more isolated or my daughter to lose her best friend. What should we have done on Saturday? Everyone just signed up for the new term so we have classes until Christmas as well. I couldn't deal with this again, much less all those weeks.

For what it is worth, I think dad knows she's not a great parent but has no influence on her in this area at all and has given up. (She above about her reasons (which she will happily state) about why she never changes her behaviour, etc.

I didn't say it would be easy Delphiniums. I suggested one way to do it earlier up the thread and it involved neither calling SS on the spot or doing nothing. And what would the reaction be? That the mother loses it at the op instead of the child? I'd say that is a better option although obviously best avoided.

You'll also note this woman is not a stranger so it is easier to say something rather than seeing worse every day. Not that I do see worse and I live in SW London that is total nappy valley - where on earth do you live that you see worse every day??!

YouAreAnton, If this woman's behaviour stands out and others notice it, including her husband, then it is 'her' that has to change and not a question of mere differing standards in styles. Are you seriously suggesting that highlighting a '3' year old's flaws to all and sundry at any given opportunity is a valid technique for a parent to use. How is it even possible for a person who has only been on this planet for three years to possess these 'terrible' traits? Publicly humiliating your children with the justification of 'being honest' about them is reckless, irresponsible and abusive.

Other parents are well aware that it's not all cupcakes and bunting but that doesn't mean that by not going around highlighting their childrens' flaws that they are just trying to project some Image of perfection, more like- they don't see their children as their adversaries, are glad they had them and actually enjoy their company/presence most of the time!

The Baby P, Daniel Pelka cases all had troublesome signs that nobody acted upon. The Mikaeel Kular case is a prime example of where he could've been saved if people had reported the emotional abuse. Do you really think an abuser is going to publicly demonstrate their unlawful methods- of course not, the signs are there in this case and they need to be acted upon.

She is belittling her child in public on a regular basis. That is not a 'parenting style' it is a complete lack of parenting skills. It also demonstrates a spiteful and cruel attitude towards her child which I would find very very worrying. There is nothing hot headed and 'just losing it in a moment of stress' about this mother's actions. They are being carried out in a cold blooded, nasty and calculated way and she sounds as if she definitely requires help and intervention.

Why are people being horrible to the OP?

The mum is near enough emotionally abusing her three year old and yet people turn on the OP for meting judgy?

Not that many years ago smacking your children was considered a valid 'parenting style'. Just saying.

I can see it when out and about in any town iK8!
She is obviously struggling- you could suggest that she gets a home start volunteer- through HV or you can self refer. It depends whether she wants help.

Perhaps the mum isn't a natural and gets it wrong, not knowing how damaging it can be?

Some parents have done the 'because x didn't eat his dinner x won't be having dessert.' Then proceeded to give others ice cream.

I don't bat an eyelid when that happens. Perhaps mum thinks wrongly that the cracker thing is similar?

People being horrible to OP shows exactly why you can't wade in whenever you think you would like to.

As this little girl may well suffer negative emotional consequences as a result of the constant 'naughty girl' comments, it seems fair to label the mother's behaviour as emotionally abusive. No doubt that she would benefit from parenting classes if she could be induced to attend them. Perhaps she would accompany her husband if someone got him to go? What if the OP and her partner suggested that they all go together?

It's difficult to get a clear picture about exactly what went on in the changing rooms because I find OP's description is so coloured by her own emotions. She says the mother was 'goading' her child - someone else might describe it as remonstrating unsuccessfully. The child was 'hysterical' - but then many parents get it wrong attempting to face down a tantrum. She insisted on a visit to the toilet. Fine. She went overboard. Not fine, but the OP doesn't report abusive language. Seems worth pointing that she didn't smack either. Yet the OP's reaction would seem more appropriate if these things had been in evidence. She handed out the crackers to other children. Not what I would do but I've seen it done as a consequence many times.

We're hearing about this from someone who had already decided that the child's behavioural problems are the result of poor parenting (evidenced, bizarrely, by a preference for netflicks, an aversion to dieting and having a sweetie drawer). If we were hearing about it from someone else, we might conclude that this mother is doing her flawed best to respond appropriately to behavioural problems. Looking at the 'long string' of incidents beforehand, it seems to come down to labelling the child as naughty. We simply cannot rush in to a home every time a child is labelled as naughty, sad as it is. It doesn't seem adequate justification to read the swimming pool event as if the OP's perspective is correct. If the mother's poor parenting is partly the result of feeling socially anxious, she's going to be at her worst in front of the OP, who sounds like the sort of woman I'd avoid like the plague.

I don't think the event at the swimming pool is anywhere near the 'call SS' threshold but as there is no consensus about where that threshold is, it's only natural that we all feel differently about it.

She sounds very negative with commenting her child couldnt be 'good' but maybe she is tired/depressed and not good with coping strategies for toddlers who can be blood hard work? A 'spontaneous' chat re isnt it funny how diff children respond in different ways might be the answer next time she is round? ie. if you havent more than one child, compare and contrast someone you 'know' who has to use different strategies for their children's different personalities and needs? Its sounds like she only knows one way and is reluctant to accept that it might be negative and it could be escalating tantrums.... Sometimes time out works, sometimes ignoring it works, sometimes a consequence works, it all depends on knowing your child and picking your battles..l.. but when you are knackered/depressed you default can be losing it ...

Maybe the husband is the best way to go op?

I kind of lost it with ds once and called him a silly boy or a naughty boy or similar. Wasn't my proudest moment.

anyway later that evening had a chat with dh and we decided not to do use that kind of tact again. now i do a kind of mummy time out where i go off and calm down and come back fresh. It's not as easy when you're out and about though admittedly.

OP, what was the mother's demeanor like during the swimming pool incident? Did she seem calm or stressed?

I know that when I've gone overboard with my toddler in public it's because I've been extremely stressed and embarrassed. If I'm shouting and scolding then my voice and hands are shaking, my face is red and I'm often close to tears.

It seems like a bit of hopeless situation if you already can't stand the woman. There's nothing you can do personally if you can't or won't reach out to her. Do you get on with her husband well enough to speak to him about the situation?

Sorry, work today and about to be out for dinner. Back with update (which caught me by surprise!) before bed.

But I just want to point out I've never actually offered her diet advice or have anything against the Netflix approach. They're just offered as examples of what you get from her generally. We have offered (many times) to look after her child so that she and hubby can have a few hours off. We were informed that they don't go out without her except that once and were immediately offered a five minute explanation of why it is better to stay home and watch Netflix than go to the movies. We weren't even talking about dieting, we were talking about exercise (her husband is keen footballer) when she came out with the weirdness about the crisps. She's just like that. One person referred to "start a fight in an empty room." That's actually how she describes herself, and is pretty proud of it to listen to her.

The shower room episode was just more extreme. She didn't seem particularly stressed or anything else. She was just how she always was, only more so and without the father to intervene.

And when I say goading, i mean telling her she could have the crackers back, but then immediately telling her she could never have crackers as they were for Good girls, not bad girls. I mean physically wrestling a hysterical child into the shower (the child hates showers, so mum has never made her do it before. I mean egging her on, not in any way calming.

I get on well with the husband, but as she also informs everyone (she's very informative) she wears the pants in that family and he knows it. Whether or not that's actually true(dad hates it when she says it, so she says it often), her response if she knew I hiad said anything was that my daughter would never see her friend again.

However (and now for dinner, so leave you on tenterhooks) for everyone who said this was normal behaviour and SS wouldn't be involved, turns out SS ARE involved as a safeguarding issue!!!! And likely will want to talk to me about what I saw.

Oh you ratbag!

So someone has obviously reported her at some point (and can I say, I think with some justification) - was it you? Or would you rather not say?

Some posters on this thread have done a fine job of picking out the bits of your post that irritate them the most without spotting the definitely damaging behaviours of constantly putting that little girl down, constantly telling her how bad/naughty she is, even when other people have said how good she's been - it's very sad.

There is a school of thought that says our core beliefs are mostly put in place by the time we're 4, and they're put there by the adults around us (or people in "authority" positions, so even a much older child can do this too) - this poor child is having it drummed into her how horrible, bad, naughty she is, and it's going to "stick" - she's going to end up believing, as part of her core personality, that she is horrible, bad and naughty. That doesn't mean that she will necessarily always behave like that, but what she does will be driven by the belief that she isn't good and no one can love her. It can seriously fuck someone up, that. :(

Jeez! I've not read the whole thread but why have you labelled her 'not a great parent'.

I'd hazard a guess, that however unpleasant she may be acting towards her child, the chances are she is really struggling. Maybe she's depressed, out of her depth, whatever...

You need to offer her support, even if she looks as though she will spit fire at you. This is if you haven't already.

Just read a bit more. Poor bloody family. They sound in a right old pickle and whatever the mother's issues the child is going to lose out big time unless the mother receives some really good support and intervention. :(

Maybe she does have issues and isnt coping. I said some not very great things about ds3 to dp after ds4 was born and I was really struggling with his behaviour. Hes a lovely but quite difficult 3.5 yo now.

However I didnt say anything negative in his hearing and I understood that me struggling to cope with his behaviour was my fault not his!

Hopefully ss will be able to give some advice and support to the family, hopefully she will be willing to take it.

I think if you are ever in the changing room situation again and the dad is outside you need to go and get him, by the sounds of it the other mums would be in agreement

I'm glad that social services are now involved. Early intervention is so important... why wait until the situation is desperate???

Hopefully more the family will get the help it needs, and the mum will be forced to listen (sounds like she is not a great listener by nature, and that it would have been difficult to get her to engage with any sort of information about good parenting voluntarily).

I'm not at all surprised that social services are taking this seriously. What has surprised and saddened me is the number of posters on this thread who completely failed to recognise the severity of the situation.

Children suffer when people fail to pass on concerns. And when the schools around them consume this kind of behaviour by saying nothing.

Goldenbear, Thumbwitch and a few others, you talked sense throughout. [Flowers]

Schools?? I meant the people around them!

Schools nearly always take this kind of thing seriously!

Oh, and by "consume", I meant "condone" - am going to leave this rotten autocorrrcting keyboard alone and go to sleep.

Op, if you were the one who called social services/ spoke to the school, well done

Poor little girl. Thats rubbish. I would still encourage your dd to be friends with her though, sounds like she needs a friend. If she's already got a social worker then I'd find out who she is and have a quick chat with her about it. You only need to ring the duty desk and you should get put through.

I didn't do any reporting to SS. I did, however, talk to nursery who were sympathetic if non-committal. But I know enough about how safeguarding works to know they can't promise me anything or even fill me in. After all, the difference between concerned friend and nosy neighbour is positively porous in some places.

But I came home and told hubby what I had done. At which point he told me that he had had a long chat with the little girl's father after drop pff this morning about nothing in particular during which he revealed that there had apparently been enough reporting about them that SS was involved and the first they'd found out about it was when they were asked for a meeting at the nursery yesterday! Apparently home visits are following and Mum is apoplectic with rage. And he's thinking of leaving her and taking the daughter as he's sick of the whole thing.

So there you have it. I hope he does leave. The little girl is so much happier (and has so many less behavioural issues) when they're one on one.

Well that's a bit of a twist to the story

Feel very sorry for the whole family, she has anger management issues at the very least and is creating a miserable existence for her DD and DH.

The sort of behaviour you describe must be pretty consistent if ss have had multiple reports. Poor little girl, it is going to be tough for her whatever happens but at least her dad sounds sensible and realises his DWs behaviour isn't right. Nice that he felt he could talk to your DH about it, sounds like he needs someone neutral to talk to.

Am at people who shrugged it off as just 'toddler having a meltdown, mum losing her rag'. fgs, shouting at your child because you're at your wits end is not the same as always putting them down and telling them how the other children are better than them. What does that do to a child self esteem. If child are always told they are bad, they will often act bad as they don't know how else to deal with their frustration and emotions. It can become a vicious circle.

Hang in there op then, for the dd's sake.

Am so pleased that your DH had a chat to the child's father, and what an outcome!

I don't in the slightest blame him for wanting to take his DD out of her mother's sphere - he of all people must know what his wife is like most of the time, and if he's fed up of the way she is then that kind of says it all.

I do hope that, whatever happens, your DD and this poor child stay friends, and that you are able to be there for her and her Dad.

This is a long thread and I haven't read it but this woman sounds emotionally abusive. The responses telling you to butt out and stop being judgemental appear to be from people to don't recognise emotionally abusive behaviour, or don't appreciate that it exists and is quite common.
I think you need to either have a word with the nursery or with social services. I don't think this meets social services thresholds at all but they could refer for a caf or raise it with the health visitor.