To ask all Scottish MNrs to work together 2

[siiiiiiiiigh]

Sorry, filled the last thread with this, thought I'd better be part of Team Scottish MN and work together for those of us on the old thread...

Here's Armando's thoughts. I vote him in for everything.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/21/scottish-referendum-massive-voter-turnout-means-politics-changed-for-ever

Looks like we're not moving on then...

I also thought the Guardian coverage was appalling - it really seemed to be a truly metropolitan newspaper that didn't understand the issues.

But the coverage of the Orange walk as a family day out was the final straw fir me...Tgese people are sectarian bigots z

I think we've found something to agree on - media coverage, particularly in the broadsheets, was universally bad.

Claig, that wasn't revolutionary socialists who heckled Farage, it was ordinary Scottish voters whom Farage simply couldn't handle.

Much against my personal opinion but in the interest of balance, here is convicted perjurer Tommy Sheridans article in full. One wonders what he has to gain by keeping a failed campaign trundling on....

Solidarity leader Tommy Sheridan has tonight urged pro-indy voters to unify around the SNP at next year's general election.

In what he stressed was a personal statement posted on his Facebook page, Sheridan outlined his belief that party differences had to be set aside in the greater cause of the Yes Scotland movement and a new referendum in 2020.

He said: "Over the last couple of days I have been inundated with thousands of Facebook and Twitter messages from disappointed Yes supporters looking for a way forward.

"I am encouraged so many have decided to become politically involved and stay politically engaged. Leaving politics to the politicians is a recipe for poor governance.

"Obviously I welcome those wishing to join my own party Solidarity...However it is not enough.

"What I am about to say is uncomfortable for a socialist like me. I oppose the SNP position on Nato membership, cutting corporation taxes for big businesses, retaining the Queen as a head of State, sharing sterling and other policies.

"But in order to maximise the pro-Independence vote in next May's General Election I believe all Yes supporters should vote for the SNP and all other pro-Independence parties should not stand if the SNP candidate will commit to fight for a new referendum as soon as possible AND against all Westmonster austerity cuts to welfare and public services.

"In other words I suggest we in the Yes Movement promote continued unity by backing the most likely Independence supporting candidate at next May's election. In concrete terms that means advocating an SNP vote to try and unseat as many pro-No party supporters as possible.

"Let's punish the reactionary and dishonest No parties at the ballot box next May. Let's punish the shameful Labour Party in particular for siding with the bankers,bosses, billionaires and millionaires to try and crush our dream of a new and better Scotland with an avalanche of fear and lies."

Sheridan added: "The Holyrood elections in 2016 allow for more socialist, green and diverse candidates to be elected. The Westmonster system doesn't. If SNP candidates commit to fighting for a new referendum and against austerity cuts let's unite behind them.

"If successful then we should insist all pro-Independence candidates in the 2016 Scottish election commit to a March 2020 referendum. This magnificent movement for independence and change can continue and grow. We have youth, energy and hope on our side. Hope can triumph over Fear in 2020.

"I realise some socialists will find it difficult to support SNP candidates. That is understandable. But the stakes are huge now. We cannot let down the 1.6 million who defied the threats and intimidation from the rich to vote for a new and better country and world.

"Unity is strength. Don't let our differences weaken our cause. #HopeOverFear remains our clarion call. Tommy."

Please feel to chime in if you actually have anything to say lovelyrita, sneering isn't particularly helpful though.

DH (English) was told not once but twice to fuck off back to England on Saturday. First and only time anything derogatory has been said about his nationality in the 12 years he's lived here. I have absolutely had it - this country is going to be in tatters. I am so angry. Tommy Sheridan for fuck's sake. Why is anyone even listening to this lying arse?

The Yes campaign lost the referendum. They do not seem to accept it. I get that there needs to be change. I am pleased people are more engaged, but this the45 stuff, which by rights should be called the37.7 because that is the percentage of the total electorate who voted yes, calling for a rerun of the referendum etc. is not showing Scotland in a great light.

The reason the majority of people didn't vote yes is because the campaign didn't make their argument. Not because they are old or scared or greedy or rich, but because they recognised the flaws in the grand plan.

The yes campaign verged on hysteria towards the end. Dear old Mum (yes, she's a no voting coffin dodger), likened it to small children getting hyped up at a birthday party, losing pass the parcel then having a tantrum and throwing up the jelly and birthday cake.

I think DH and I will be leaving. I don't like the way this is heading, the bitterness and anger. This is not my country anymore. Yes voters are making it sound as if we live in some oppressed stalag instead of the beautiful, bountiful, opportunity ridden place that Scotland is.

Rita it's Yes who seem determined to ignore the result of the referendum. As pointed out on here the whole point of it was to trust the voters of Scotland to determine their future.

But according to a large number of sore lovers starting from Salmond down those who voted No were actually duped/ too old/ too stupid/ too selfish/ didn't understand it.

I'm not sure if you saw the article from Marco Biagi

www.scotsman.com/news/marco-biagi-snp-must-now-lead-as-a-government-1-3548061

"A pledge of another referendum in the next SNP manifesto is now inconceivable. For the first time since 1979 no ­direct route map to independence will be laid before voters, but nor will it be laid before members and activists."

This is clearly at odds with what Sheridan wants them to do.

I hope this will turn out to be the SNP's "Clause 4" moment and quite honestly would be delighted if whether or not to include a pledge for another referndum tears them apart.

"sore losers"

"You mean Scottish MPs, representing Scottish constituencies of Scottish people at Westminster."

You mean except the ones who had to toe the party line instead of representing what their constituents wanted, surely?

I mean whether they should have been saying yes or no should surely have been about representing constituents, not their party.

As for the middle class voters considering or not considering people on benefits or low incomes...have you actually seen which areas had a high yes vote? Or are people in deprived areas too stupid to understand the issues as well?

sore lovers

I'm getting really uncomfortable that there is a sacrosanct yes thread where anyone wanting to engage in debate is turfed out and yet no voters seem to be fair game to be ridiculed and derided.

I know so many cool engaged people in scotland - both yes and no voters, who want to see scotland moving forward and prospering for the good of everyone. Social media seems to be stuck in a rut of recrimination, bitterness and a refusal to accept what has happened.

Kids whining 'its no fair'. Life isn't bloody fair. You don't always get what you want and all this backbiting is making scots look like a shower of thuggish arseholes. For the first time in my 24 years in London I was told to 'go home' (by a second gen brit, and the irony wasn't lost on me).

I hope this does kick people into action. Stop whinging do something, even if its volunteeting at a playscheme or painting over graffitti in the street.

I think I raised the point about well off yes voters (Brian Soutar, anyone?) - I know quite a few myself. I'm not saying they dominated the campaign but they did exist.

tabulah
On the one hand this
But according to a large number of sore losers starting from Salmond down those who voted No were actually duped/ too old/ too stupid/ too selfish/ didn't understand it

Or this
As for the middle class voters considering or not considering people on benefits or low incomes...have you actually seen which areas had a high yes vote? Or are people in deprived areas too stupid to understand the issues as well

How about nobody at all was selfish/stupid/duped etc, let's assume everyone made a balanced decision based on what they though was best. Given that scenario, Yes lost the vote, end of. Politics will move on in Scotland with or without you, it would be better for everyone if it was with you.

Of course there is media bias and politicians don't tell it like it is...
That's why you shouldn't believe everything you read, read between the lines, read more than one source and go the original information where possible...
I remember discussing media bias and eg Mirror - Labour, Telegraph - Tory etc as part of general studies on a vocational course in the early 80s. And the Guardian advert 'see the whole picture'. Wonder if critical thinking has been missing from education more recently.

And IMO social media is even worse, mainstream media is biased but the basic facts are more likely to be correct...
(looking at one of the links up thread I noticed a youtube link posted by a Yes voter 'Jim Murphy getting torn apart in Fife' - watched it and I'm pretty sure that was actually in Dundee )
I avoided things like that during the referendum, concentrating on the facts not the rhetoric.
And public debate doesn't mean getting 'rent a mob' to drown out someone's right to free speech -which is what happens in that video.
And it is a good illustration of why the Nos were the silent majority and some people may have felt intimated by, and thus rejected, the Yes campaign.

If you watch/listen to Question time - or go to any political meetings/debates - it won't just be Joe Public there - there will be a number of party activists from all sides involved who have been organised to be there, to clap at the right times and support their party.

I thought the point of the independence referendum was to trust the people in Scotland to make decisions about the future of Scotland. We made a decision and has not even been respected for a week. Apparently we're too old, too greedy and too stupid to know what we voted for

^^ This point keeps getting ignored.

How on earth do you think it would have all worked out, if god help us, Yes had won?

"How about nobody at all was selfish/stupid/duped etc, let's assume everyone made a balanced decision based on what they though was best."

I didn't say otherwise, but after the condemnation of people judging older voters as being stupid or ill informed for voting no (justified condemnation btw) it's a bit rich to then discuss whether the middle class voters voted on behalf of people on benefits or yes because they weren't thinking of them without acknowledging that the areas with a high yes vote were most definitely not middle class.

They were voting on their own behalf!

chipping the party would just have finished

So were arguing about agreeing
Everyone voted for what they though was best.

Phaedra my concern is they will probably do what they did in 2010, (barely mention independence in the run up to the election), have people assume that they accept that it's too soon to have another referendum, and then get in and have another one anyway.

2 million people in Scotland voted no. I'm not sure why our views are meant to be less valid than the 1.6 million who voted yes.

Complaints about Labour MPs not reflecting their constituents go both ways. Many SNP areas like Angus and the Western Isles voted No.

4 council areas voted yes. Out of 32.
Out of the 5 largest Council areas only 2 voted yes.

Cedric come on. You are talking about 'the thread for happy yessers' aren't you? I looked and all that happened was the OP said to you 'this is a thread for yessers, just saying.' You then posted some other comments, and no one challenged you or ordered you off the thread. It's not sacrosanct, people were just trying to keep it on topic, rather than it turning into yet another debate thread, of which there are many. There are no laws saying you can't go back and try and debate more, it's just that the thread wasn't intended for that purpose. Threads go off topic all the time on here, and it's certainly not the first time I've seen an OP try to guide a thread back to the original topic. It's nothing sinister. You're making out like your freedom of speech is being stifled!

"So were arguing about agreeing
Everyone voted for what they though was best."

Yes, lol.

It was the whole whether the middle classes were thinking of those less well off discussion that annoyed me.

As if their vote somehow counted more or that people in deprived areas weren't voting too.

'like your freedom of speech is being stifled'

Please don't start that talk, that's got me in floods of tears for Jim Murphy again.

Sorry Claig, didn't mean to make anyone cry.