To ask all Scottish MNrs to work together 2

[siiiiiiiiigh]

Sorry, filled the last thread with this, thought I'd better be part of Team Scottish MN and work together for those of us on the old thread...

Here's Armando's thoughts. I vote him in for everything.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/21/scottish-referendum-massive-voter-turnout-means-politics-changed-for-ever

I don't think it would come as a surprise to anyone that the Queen is a unionist but honestly Cameron you are a prat for saying that.

I would like to be a fly on the wall the next time he goes to visit her

SC, why is the Ashcroft poll not robust? I'm seeing it quoted everywhere, would love some ammo to discredit wild extrapolations.

Morris because the number of "young people" was tiny. I'm sure I've read around 14 people.

Cameron is a total pratt. How rude and disrespectful.

Here it is. There were 14 16/17 year olds in the sample.

I know my nephew's school's mock ballot was a No.

www.reddit.com/r/Scotland/comments/2h4ekw/lord_ashcroft_poll_only_had_a_sample_size_of_17/

Incidentally I have no idea what that site I posted the link to is other than it seems to be a refreshingly polite discussion amongst statistics geeks!

Luckytwo I think that if 'local people' can have more control of 'local issues' according to what Cameron has brilliantly masterminded (except he doesn't know whether 'local' means city, region, country or council - then they might well have all kinds of weird and wonderful taxes all around the country pertaining to what 'local people' decide is a good place to syphon off money. My guess is that some areas will decide on high taxes for the rich but others may decide on high taxes for immigrants or small businesses or farmland etc etc.

I wish Cameron hadn't made those last minute promises, it's going to end in a terrible mess and the country will be rife with conmen, corruption and inequality. People seem to be so enthusiastic about localism but seeing it in reality might be quite ugly.

We will never probably now know if that bloody promise made any difference. It honestly didn't for me, nor for anyone I know. If anything I don't want more powers.

And England is 85% of the population. We can't possibly have the same rules as a country that makes up 8%. Divided into 8 regions it might be possible and fair but... I think it's all ridiculous and highly risky. If the No voters were avoiding risk they have caused a lot more uncertainty in the whole of the UK now. What happens in England will have a massive knock-on effect on Scotland.

Hell the English might decide to invent a Scot Tax and charge them extra for living here.

Sorry to be negative but in politics you do have to look at the worst case scenario and make sure you've got everything in place to avoid it happening - at the moment everyone's thinking of the best case scenario (we can make lots of tax money with popular and one-off taxes) but the bigger picture is lost. The rich will just put their money elsewhere (art, gold, infrastructure, skyscrapers divided into flats). The rich get rich by avoiding tax, not by paying it. Great, the mansions get divided up into flats but really how much money does that get anyone?

Sorry, another rant. I feel absolutely offended by the way Cameron has ridden roughshod over the democratic process by making up random plans for the WHOLE constitution of this country without any consultation from anyone except his mates and possibly the Queen. We have constitutionally gone back in time by 500 years.

The promise has made a huge difference. He's dismantling democracy (or elements of it) for the Tory Party's benefit and Labour are going along with it to see what they can get out of it, i.e. hoping to avoid a Tory government for the next 20 years because Labour will never get any parliamentary decisions going their way without Scotland and certainly not without Wales.

Give Scotland more powers if that's what you promised, but don't mess about with 85% of the population. Phaedra you knew Cameron was going to devolve more powers when he made the promise - I assume you voted No, but why if you didn't want more powers in the first place? A Yes vote would have got you full independence with the usual proportional powers that any individual living in a small state would but this 'local' powers for 'local' people is a whole different kettle of fish. A Yes vote would have been one small nation voting together on all issues. Now we have a bunch of regions with dodgy local politicians deciding the fate of their local citizens with slapdash consultations (as it currently already exists) but with a LOT more powers. There will be no cohesion and no direction for the country as a whole.

I admit there is a need for a big shake up in these matters, there isn't a lot of continuity now that councils outsource and commission services and the NHS is self-governing Trusts instead of a whole being with a co-ordinated strategy, but surely the failures of this kind of system should be seen as a warning against it.

The stakes in the postcode lottery are getting ever higher. There will be poor disadvantaged areas with dodgy bus services and wealthy content ones with everything running tickety boo. Christ it's already like that in London.

Well that's got that off my chest!

Feeling

Will go and have a and a good night's sleep.

Morriszapp I put on a post earlier today about the ashcroft poll -I can't copy on my phone but it was at 11:09. Basically, you can't draw an exact conclusion from small samples. But I explained it more thoroughly

Daughter but I don't want independence so I couldn't possibly have voted Yes.

I made my mind up when the idea was first raised. I voted No in both devolution referenda and since Holyrood my only criteria for voting there is which combination of first preference and list vote is most likely not to result in an SNP msp. Sorry but I feel that strongly about it.

The extra powers are an irrelevance. I agree with you a No vote might cause the difficulties you mention but it's still nowhere approaching the long term upheaval a Yes vote would have.

Well of course you can't draw an exact comparison but you can use a bit of common sense to see where it's all heading.

I think I am actually more angry about the fact that there is SO MUCH to be done just to get the present political system in this country straight. Inequality is getting rifer, we should be focussing on that and not wasting valuable energy re-inventing the wheel. Get a new inner tube maybe...

And the reason I feel that strongly about not getting the SNP in power is I completely agree with Tam Dalyell that this is the sort of mess which will result.

Phaedra I know it's not your fault but the No vote is going to cause massive upheaval not only to RUK but to Scotland as a result it will be hugely destabilising and could be disastrous. It might be the making of this country but the way it was presented as a last resort strategy (to keep oil and trident) I think it will be the breaking of it. And if it breaks it it will break Scotland along with it.

And you did vote AFTER Cameron made his promises so you can't say you were an unwitting voter - but of course you personally would have been between a rock and a hard place as a voter who believed in a united UK but one that didn't want more localism.

This is why I'm angry at Cameron, he should have left well alone, as should Milliband and the others. It was Scotland's vote, nobody else's.

The SNP will still be in power after the No vote. If the vote was yes the other parties would have quickly realigned and who knows where it would have led politically, probably ended up much the same as at present, a two party system of left and right.

Tbh I'm not sure I believed him anyway or that it would be anything of great consequence which was offered. I didn't see the outmaneuvering of Milliband but then neither did he.

I think the localism thing will die a death.

SO MUCH to be done just to get the present political system in this country straight. Inequality is getting rifer, we should be focussing on that and not wasting valuable energy re-inventing the wheel. Get a new inner tube maybe..

Well that applies equally to the SNP .

I hope localism does die a death too, or at least gets serious consideration before power is handed out willy nilly to any local worthy.

The SNP are not the whole of Scotland but they might get stronger now that the whole of England seems to have conspired against them to use the No vote to their advantage.

The SNP would have been much less powerful with a Yes vote. You have a lot of very good politicians in Scotland but I suspect they will have to work a lot harder to win votes off the SNP now.

Sorry to bring doom and gloom, I am not blaming anyone here, just pissed off with Dave, Nick and Ed for playing games and changing the rules as they go along.

Actually I think another vote with no last-minute promises wouldn't be a bad idea.

There's a poll doing the rounds now (source: Yes Scotland) which days that 25% of people switched from yes to no they vote because of the "vow" .

I thought this had been debunked, or am I wrong?

Mind you, I saw it on social media and we all know that everything on there is impeccably sourced, and reviewed for objectivity before being shared.

The ashcroft poll at aggregate level has 9% of no voters making their mind up in the last week. The vow was about four days before wasn't it?

That was a much lower proportion than yes voters who made their minds up in the last week as well.