To start a thread inspired by, but not about, indyref?

[StatisticallyChallenged]

In the run up to the Scottish Independence Referendum, we had some fabulous, spirited, enlightening and enthusiastic debates on this board. I know I learned a lot from talking with so many politically aware people, and a few people have suggested that we start a thread to try and continue some of the best parts of the discussions.

So this is a thread for us to discuss what we feel is wrong with our country, some possible solutions and how we can do something about it. It's not a thread for debating independence, justifying our votes or for recriminations and anger; more somewhere to chat about some of the underlying issues such as our constitution/political structure, welfare, social justice and equality which concerned people on both sides of the independence debate. I'm also not proposing this as an exclusively Scottish debate although I suspect it will be dominated by us, as many of these are UK-wide issues.

So, what needs to change? How can we make our individual countries and union better?

In terms of immigration, intangible concerns like culture are hard to address (I don't see a problem either) but (some) people tend to blame immigration when they find it difficult to access jobs, affordable housing, school places, GP appointments or other services. I think it's an easy mistake to make, because they think of the problem in terms of 'too many people' rather than 'services not flexible enough to respond to local needs'.

Whilst we are solving the problems of the country raised by the indy discussion. What about poverty? I didn't believe the claims that independence would alleviate poverty (I thought it would make it worse) but while we are in the UK, what can we do about it, not just in Glasgow and Dundee but throughout the UK?

Oh wow, what an interesting thread!
I just caught up - it's a bit much this early in the morning

I am German, lived in England for 6 months, then moved to Scotland some 20+ years ago. I was delighted that I was allowed to vote in the Ref as I see Scotland as my adopted country even though I don't identify as 'Scottish' or 'British'.

My family still state that 'PD lives in England', meaning Britain. They give me an indulgent smile and pat my head in a loving manner when I correct them.
DH is Scottish - he is not particularly outwardly nationalistic (and voted No), but is a very proud Scot and struggles to maintain his equilibrium when repeated labelled 'English' - interesting visits at my folks at times…

Wrt to federalism: Germany has been a federal republic since WW2. The 'Länder' have devolved powers with the overall 'umbrella' of national powers in Berlin. Every 'Land' has a 'capital' city with a city council (to govern city issues) and regional council which governs issues for the 'Land'. The Bundestag in Berlin is the 3rd tier if you want. It seems to work, there are elections more frequently than here and turn-out tends to be 60+% which is not great, but okish.
I think one important difference is that there are many Länder and nobody perceives themselves as a different nation - we are all German (well, maybe the Bavarians are more German than the rest of us ).
The whole country is less 'Capital city centric' than the UK - yes, there are urban centres of increased affluence and population density, but Munich is as important as Hamburg as Berlin as Düsseldorf etc. in many respects.

Also the phrase 'the eyes of the world are on us' which I have heard and seen as headlines: erm, well, really only a little. I know the Basques and other nations keen on independence have been acutely aware what's been going on, but generally? No, the world has not been holding its breath.
I was in Germany last weekend (just before the Ref) and I was asked once or twice which way I thought it was going to go, but nobody was particularly aerated about it - whatever the outcome.

Immigration: this country needs immigrants. The population is getting older (I work in the NHS as see daily evidence of this), we are having less children (on average) and many Brits (I'd include other 'rich' Western Europeans) are not prepared to do low-skilled jobs at minimal wage - not a very nice statement to make, but an unpalatable truth IMO. We need people to come in and remove rubbish, work in caring jobs, sweeps the streets and provides the backbone of our economy.
Yes, I appreciate this is a terrible and gross generalisation.

I was shocked how quickly AS resigned - I did think his position had become a bit untenable and his life's goal had not been achieved, but I did expect him to stick around to help clear up the mess tbh. Nicola is a force to be reckoned with, so we shall see.

Interesting thoughts about immigration. Agree that Scotland needs more.

Wrt childcare, I think there needs to be a cultural shift from low pay, low status. I think that's a feminist issue myself (that's a whole other debate), how can we go about changing that? Childcare professionals deserve a lot more respect imo.

ah PacificDogwood thank you so much for that.

I wonder whether anyone here is looking at the German system and working out whether something like it might work here. I hope so.

I think Westminster are going to need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the future and not be allowed to kick all this into the long grass - look at how long it's taken for anything to happen in the House of Lords

Re. immigration - yes, UKIP have been allowed a free run at this and we should have a more nuanced approach. The problems that people perceive perhaps more in the South East are more a failure to build housing and update transport.

And another question, if Scotland opens its arms and asks for more immigrants, we would have to have some sort of Scottish and/or Northern England work-permit.

My family still state that 'PD lives in England', meaning Britain. They give me an indulgent smile and pat my head in a loving manner when I correct them.

That is exactly my experience in Holland, Germany & Belgium too. No doubt Chelsy with her uber-switched on Euro friends and colleagues will totally disagree. But I am glad there are 3 of us with more than passing links to Euro countries who all agree that english/scottish are viewed as interchangeable when describing us.

I also agree that the "eyes of the world are on us" thing was massively overplayed. It was reported here, some people did ask me about it in a semi-interested only asking to be polite way, but it absolutely wasn't a big issue at all. If the lack of interest here, in one of Scotland's closest geographic (and possibly also cultural?) neighbours is anything to go by, the world isn't very interested at all.

People here know far more about, and are far more interested in, for instance, the immigrant problem in Calais, or the growth of UKIP/Farage/UK anti-immigration politics in general, than they are about Scottish independence.

In the US, apparently the last widely reported story from the UK was about the royal pregnancy. Not much interest in this little country's referendum at all.

Yes, the whole England/Scotland/UK/Britain layer cake is misunderstood, even by Brits (try asking 10 people the difference between Great Britain and the United Kingdom).

But in the end it's the British who need to grasp the issues and address them, not the Dutch

of course that's true, but I just hate the whole way it was made out that rest of the world were sitting on the edge of their seats waiting to see how Scotland would vote, they weren't. At all.

Morning everyone.

Catching snippets of the labour party conference -they're not sounding terribly credible or like they have much of substance to say. It's like they're doing anything to avoid controversy and Judy winding up bland.

Just, not Judy!

Yes, the whole England/Scotland/UK/Britain layer cake is misunderstood, even by Brits (try asking 10 people the difference between Great Britain and the United Kingdom).

This ^^ was circulating a while ago but I still like it.

I have a lot of time for John Curtis - is this a good thing or a bad thing?

I am so sending that clip to my darling family - thank you!

But I am glad there are 3 of us with more than passing links to Euro countries who all agree that english/scottish are viewed as interchangeable when describing us.
Make that four. For the past 12.5 years whenever I go home to Germany people aks me how I'm doing over there in England, to which I always answer that I'm doing very well in SCOTLAND or alternativly in GB and they will just shrug as if it doesn't matter. It's strange because as citizens of a federal country they should really be able to get the point of this.

I think the difference is that Germany is a federal country of ONE nation and here we have 4 nations.
It is like telling an Austrian that they are German, or a Dutch person that they are Belgian

it's a bit weird, isn't it pacificdogwood I've been thinking about this quite a bit over the last couple of weeks. As a Bavarian (albeit a Frankonian one) I should be culturally and historically a lot closer to an Austrian than to someone from Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, but someone from MV feels very much like a fellow German whereas an Austrian doesn't. Not sure how this works.

Igneococcus & Pacific, I am so glad it's just not me who is surrounded by particularly thick Euro friends family and colleagues, lol. I did worry for a second when Chelsy's Euro friends/family/colleagues all understood it perfectly, yet I have been repeating the same "I am not English, I am Scottish or British" mantra (to people who just politely humour me) for going on 30 yrs now!

I think what nationality one identifies as belong to is a deeply emotional issue, and not entirely rational (well, I know it's not for me ).
Soon, I will have lived in the UK longer than I lived in Germany and still, for better or for worse, I am German - not because I think it's 'better' or 'superior' but just because that what I am.
My DH and DCs are Scottish, hold British passports and I have considered on and off applying for British citizenship but it just did not sit right with me.
Although it does annoy me intensely that I cannot vote in GE here - I faithfully use my postal vote in Germany but really have no clue what goes on there politically.

same here Pacific, have spent more than half of my life out outside of Scotland, but I 100% identify as Scottish or British. I have no preference to Brit or Scot, I just get way too pedantic when I get called English. I also have the same thought process about opting for another citizenship. I have no problems with others who do it for whatever reasons, but I am, always have been, and always be, Scottish and British. And as you say, not because it's better, it just wouldn't sit right with me to be anything except British.

Its funny how this referendum has made us really think about nationality and how we identify ourselves isn't it? I'd never given it that much thought before.

I never used to think about it, although ?suppose I would have described myself as Scottish and British. At the moment, I think of myself as British and Scottish. Although apparently to some I'm not Scottish enough (to be fair, the most recent accusation of that was during a rather heated discussion, she may have calmed down enough by now to admit that Perth is in fact in Scotland).

Impressed that you are all still keeping up the posting rate - I have been drained all weekend.

Thanks for the thread. It's a great opportunity to air doubts and explore facts.

I'm English and married to a Scot. We live in rural central England, or are we in the north?
That's the problem really. If things fragment to devolving powers to regions or metropolitan areas then we fall through all the cracks! (We get a 2 different regional TV channels in two different rooms in the house! We require four phone books!

We identify more closely with the rural Scots. Our broadband is awful, there's always a crisis in one village or another round here because a school becomes too small to be viable and we feel far removed from Westminster.
We too don't feel we're represented at all, or listened to.

It's not exclusively a Scottish problem or perception.

If anything comes of this I would hope it leads to more cohesion, not less.

I don't want an English parliament. It worries me that, without the Scots MPs ones, we in England are going to find every aspect of our lives dominated from London - but I don't necessarily want a regional assembly either. That adds another layer of bureaucracy and career politicians.

It will also make people less likely to vote in a Westminster GE. We moan that it doesn't represent us but we don't turn out and vote so it doesn't represent us. Chicken and egg.

I want a parliament in Westminster that really does govern the entire country, elected by the entire country without one chunk of it saying we won't vote in a GE because we already have our own assembly/parliament.

And I don't want Cameron and his committee to bounce us into anything in a hurry. Ed Milliband is right. The vow to Scotland must be honoured but we should take time to reflect where we go from here.

Its funny how this referendum has made us really think about nationality and how we identify ourselves isn't it? I'd never given it that much thought before.

I never used to think about it, although ?suppose I would have described myself as Scottish and British. At the moment, I think of myself as British and Scottish.

SC & OOAOML

yes this whole thing has really made me think deeper about my nationality.

Someone asked yesterday, LivingZuid I think it was, what makes us feel British. I am struggling to answer that one.

Though like OOAOML, I used to think of myself as Scottish first and British second. Now that has changed. I now know being British is more important to me than being Scottish. I hope I never have to give either of them up. I am ferociously proud of both titles. But the British one is non negotiable for me. But, I still find it easy to state what defines me as Scottish, but have trouble defining my "British-ness". The only answer I can come up with is...I am Scottish, therefor I am British. I could not stand not being the "same but slightly different" as my fellow Brits (English, Welsh, N.Irish). If I was just Scottish then England, Wales and N.Ireland would be foreign countries for me, and frankly that is just an alien and awful thought for me.

I've don't think of myself as Scottish. I got told off for saying that but I'm sorry it's true.

I wonder if Britishness is actually indefinable. That's the beauty of it.

We can be English & British, Scots o& British as the mood takes us. It works.