To start a thread inspired by, but not about, indyref?

[StatisticallyChallenged]

In the run up to the Scottish Independence Referendum, we had some fabulous, spirited, enlightening and enthusiastic debates on this board. I know I learned a lot from talking with so many politically aware people, and a few people have suggested that we start a thread to try and continue some of the best parts of the discussions.

So this is a thread for us to discuss what we feel is wrong with our country, some possible solutions and how we can do something about it. It's not a thread for debating independence, justifying our votes or for recriminations and anger; more somewhere to chat about some of the underlying issues such as our constitution/political structure, welfare, social justice and equality which concerned people on both sides of the independence debate. I'm also not proposing this as an exclusively Scottish debate although I suspect it will be dominated by us, as many of these are UK-wide issues.

So, what needs to change? How can we make our individual countries and union better?

I don't think that childcare should be made a degree level profession. Not by a long shot.

There are some fantastic nannies, childminders & nursery workers who are absolutely brilliant with children who don't have degrees - it's not necessary.

Small children need love, warmth and care & the facilities to learn through play, not degree'd staff.

Childcare is expensive now, can you imagine how expensive it would be if all the staff were degree level?

Thanks flippinada :)

Wheels OK.

Totally agree chipping.

To manage a childcare setting you already have to get or be working towards a degree level qualification. I'm not sure, if I'm honest, that a qualification of degree level is necessary for childcarers though. I'm not sure what the answer is, but my gut feeling is that's not it.

It definitely needs to be recognised as a valued and better paid careers option though. Maybe something like a longer training period, closely monitored and evaluated in a really meaningful way - but not about exams as such.

Yup, Care Inspectorate is the equivalent of Ofsted for childcare settings. Some good, some unrealistic muppets too focused on minor details ("do you have an individual toothbrush for each child which is in a sealed holder? Oh no, you can't use hand towels unless every child has their own and it's boil washed daily. Oh my lord, you have a pet rat in a cage on a different floor which the children don't go near, do you have a 44 page risk assessment for that?") rather than what makes a great environment for kids.

Immigration in my view is not worth worrying about. I despair about how politicians make so much of it. So really disappointing in this global economy. It's propaganda by ukip and the daily fail trying to make everyone sit up and get annoyed.
It really is not worth worrying about in my opinion

I agree with you - but the evidence suggests it's a concern for a huge number of people. It's why UKIP is able to grow. So maybe their concern needs to be addressed - rather than necessarily immigration itself.

Many good points there!

I think a longer training period is absolutely necessary, but it should result in some form of qualification.

You do have to do qualifications - an SVQ2 to work at support worker level, an SVQ3 for practitioner and a PDA/BA in childhood practice for manager level.

Yes you're quite right, SC, but it's very difficult to make folk understand that their way of life is not threatened - I can't see his we get through that.
Also why us salmond wandering about giving interviews ? He should be in hiding .
Sorry have no view that's helpful on child care - there was nothing available to me as a young parent , except the kind that cost lots if money. I think there should be something that's subsidised but not so that people end up feeling they must go to work, rather than stay at home. It should be the decision that makes most sense for the family.

I think the immigration issue is a hard one to address because a lot of the anxiety stems from perception rather than hard fact or reality and that's hard to get past. I don't know if anyone saw the series of programmes that Nick & Margaret (Alan sugar's side kicks) from the apprentice made recently. It was really interesting and went some way to alleviating the fears some people had but couldn't get past those whose daily mail type of views were entrenched. Even when faced with the reality of immigrants working to pay their way, not getting huge sums in benefits, living in overcrowded accommodation & working jobs that couldn't be filled by British workers, there were still people who wouldn't accept their perception wasn't accurate.

And that's so terribly narrow, isn't it ?I hear something similar almost daily . Does my head in!

It is really difficult. I just thought those survey results were interesting - more people think the govt should prioritise it than the economy! Which does suggest that it somehow needs acknowledged. I didn't see the program you mentioned. What I have seen is some of the ridiculously inflammatory programs churned out recently about people coming to Britain - the programs were an absolute disgrace and clearly designed to build anger and resentment.

there were still people who wouldn't accept their perception wasn't accurate.

this is very true and very apt. I don't understand the hoo ha over immigration. 31%?? Over an education system that has been decimated?! Talk about hiding the bad news over complete guff.

Can't believe immigration got 31%!!

I don't get the immigration thing either. 31% seems very high.

Going back to the childcare thing, I'm wondering if there needs to be done sort of shift in perception - basically it's regarded slow pay low status work. It shouldn't be. But how on earth can we change that?

*regarded as low pay low status, that should say.

Yeah, it's the "hair or care" assumption that it's low status. It's only our babies after all

The problem is that providing good quality childcare is actually pretty darned expensive. And many parents already find it prohibitively expensive.

Here's a link to an article about the programmes here

I'd actually say care of adults goes in the same box Behoove e.g. care home work.

Yep, agree, just mentioned babies as the context was childcare.

I like a good hairdresser as well btw

I just meant we don't value any care work adequately. I have a family member who works in care homes - she literally couldn't care for a cat properly.

That's not to say there aren't great people in care just that because it's not as valued as it should be it can cause issues.

Once upon a time, nurses were in that category too. Huge culture shift is required in terms of valuing the job without having to 'professionalise' it with degrees etc.

On immigration, for Scotland, at least, IMO we need a lot more of it (and I think the SNP agreed). Not only for the usual reasons given, like we need more working age people to support our increasing numbers of pensioners, but also because more people means bigger local markets for goods, services etc. The drift to London and the SE is because these areas have jobs and, for the most part, often a pretty good quality of life.

There is a virtuous circle of increasing population, leading to greater demands for good and services, leading to wage inflation, leading to more job opportunities, leading to more people etc etc. (I can't back any of this with statistics - sorry - but it is pretty self-evident really).

On the other hand, I can't see enough reasons to draw people to Scotland from the rest of the UK or overseas. In Glasgow there is some manufacturing, some decent universities, some financial services, but I can't see anything here which would match the vast numbers that are employed in the City, for example.

So, I think some major investment in industries and sectors which will deliver sustainable long term jobs, which will draw people to the cities, would make a major contribution to solving a number of issues.

And in terms of immigration itself, I think this should be partially devolved to Scotland, so that it could, for example, allow more economic migrants to work here (as is permitted in Canada and Australia, I believe). England might not like it but there could be ways of managing it, for example, social services and benefits would only be available to economic migrants in the city/council/ region in which they are permitted for work for say, the first 3 years of their residency?