To start a thread inspired by, but not about, indyref?

[StatisticallyChallenged]

In the run up to the Scottish Independence Referendum, we had some fabulous, spirited, enlightening and enthusiastic debates on this board. I know I learned a lot from talking with so many politically aware people, and a few people have suggested that we start a thread to try and continue some of the best parts of the discussions.

So this is a thread for us to discuss what we feel is wrong with our country, some possible solutions and how we can do something about it. It's not a thread for debating independence, justifying our votes or for recriminations and anger; more somewhere to chat about some of the underlying issues such as our constitution/political structure, welfare, social justice and equality which concerned people on both sides of the independence debate. I'm also not proposing this as an exclusively Scottish debate although I suspect it will be dominated by us, as many of these are UK-wide issues.

So, what needs to change? How can we make our individual countries and union better?

You're welcome Rose :) Good to have you back on thread!

I will not, however, put my children into a nursery staffed by daft 17 year old girls who have completed basic college courses.

Oh yes. We have the same problem. All the good childminders are gone. But what do you do for the first three or four years?

I would like to see the standard of childcare dramatically increased. I have been very unimpressed by what I have seen so far. And the cost capped to enable parents to return to work. I am as anti private childcare as I am private money in the education system.

happyscot yes the UAE is a good example structurally. Although I would be rather worried should we move to the same governance structure!

I just want to see more power devolved across the UK. My other concern is how to avoid corruption and the role of local authorities in this who I have found inept at the best of times.

I don't know, with the proper investment I think government run nurseries could be really great.

Ugh, typical responses to the fishy pair's absence on the other thread. Totally despairing.

Sorry, can't remember who commented on my comment regarding scotland being more like nz than norway. i think socially we are far more like nz. The main problem the yes campaign has is that we are so intertwined with the uk. someone mentioned on an earlier thread how ironic it was that Prince William was attending Malta's independence anniversary celebrations. malta, apart from providing naval support for the British navy, has had it's own economy for years. there was no real separation issues on independence. same with NZ/Oz etc.

have been discussingvwith Dh (Australian) this pm, and we sat at dinner table (sad) trying to remember which powers are federal and which are state. Many are sort of duplicated.

Apols for typos and abbrev - typing one fingered! Thinking about this in depth and trying to get head around enormity of process

I think that's probably true - the colonies which became independent never had the level of economic interdependence that the constituent countries of the UK have.

Chipping, why do you think I separate the SE from the rest of England? The north/South divide isn't simply about Scotland/England. That's an issue that England has too, and as far as I'm aware, is the reason some might think devolving powers to the different areas of England is one way to address the disparity between the north & South of England. I'm well aware London isn't the same as SE, as I'm well aware Glasgow isn't the same as mull. Not sure why you are taking umbrage at me questioning the logic in your answer to the barnet formula when SC has said much the same thing? You still need to account for the different needs/difficulties each area has. Right now I've no idea if having a low population count with large rural areas out with the central belt in Scotland means that the extra Scotland gets is sucked up by the costs it takes to maintain the infrastructure in the large rural/island areas, or if Scotland as a whole is much better off than the rest of the UK because they get a surplus that their specific needs don't actually warrant. So again, I'm not defending barnet or saying it shouldn't change because it's right, I'm questioning how we do that. And it's my opinion that your answer creates more problems than it solves, precisely because of the dense overpopulation in the SE.

The SE as a whole is over populated, not just London & if your argument is money should be allocated per head of population, it stands to reason that that means more money allocated for the SE rather than the likes of wales or the NE which are the areas I thought triggered the concern over the unfair advantage Scotland supposedly has. If the barnet formula is unfair to wales or the NE or the midlands then shifting that disparity to the SE isn't going to help. That's my point.

It is a massively complex area to address i.e. how to fairly allocate the resources around all parts of the Uk. I'm not suggesting that you haven't thought about it or aren't bothered about being fair. I just don't agree with your answer to what is seen as an unfair advantage Scotland has financially.

I'm in the S-E, and while I can see there is poverty in places, it really isn't anything like up north. London of course is a different animal, there are some terribly deprived ares there
In my area (surrey) I've heard folk say recently that the problem with up North is they don't get that 'we might be asset millionaires, but we don't have that much free cash '
Really ?

I think I'm probably a bit cynical Santana because I have visions of it being like a giant version of the Care Inspectorate inspections which largely are all about paperwork and numbers and not nearly enough about the interaction, care etc. I could see it being far too formulaic and not what children actually need. It could work though. But it would need to be something very different. And the budget suggested is crazy and no, IMO, enough to provide good quality, good ration care.

Behoove it's interesting that immigration is perceived as such a huge issue.Question is was it caused by UKIP/the Mail or are they just feeding/feeding off a worry that was already there?

There is the vision and there is the reality, you're right about that.

I don't know, but it's obviously a huge issue for them. A vicious circle, literally.

Maybe tackling the issues around immigration - I don't necessarily mean tackling actual immigration but the reasons for the way it is perceived and trying to understand what the issues are that people have with it - is quite important?

Yes, but it's a dodgy subject, it would have to be pitched very clearly and carefully. Wanting to investigate issues around immigration; the UKIP way seems to be 'lock them all out' a softer attitude will be spun as 'open borders, welcome to all' Each plays to their own gallery. Who will find the middle ground?

Wheels

SC hasn't said much the same thing?! What she has said is different, she is discussing the method of determining the block allocation between the 4 countries you are talking about money flowing into the SE and not the Midlands & the North etc. Which I don't see as anyone's business other than England's in the same way that I don't think how much goes to Glasgow or Mull is anyone's business but Scotland's.

The dense population of the SE is only relevant to the block funding if you think it takes something away from the other 3 countries - not if you don't like how England allocates it afterwards.

if your argument is money should be allocated per head of population, it stands to reason that that means more money allocated for the SE

No, no it doesn't. It means the same amount of money is allocated to ENGLAND per person, as to Scotland, Wales & NI. To be spent by the Devolved Administrations as they see fit - where it NEEDS to go. Just because the population is in the SE it doesn't mean it will be spent in the SE and where it is spent is up to England to decide - surely that's the point of devolution?

As was pointed out earlier - people in the SE actually already get less spent on them per head that anywhere else in the UK.

The SE as a whole is over populated

Really - based on what? I'm surrounded by fields, rivers & cows. It's not feeling that over populated here nor through great swathes of the SE.

I'm not suggesting that you haven't thought about it or aren't bothered about being fair

No, you didn't suggest it, you stated it.

you can't say scrap it because it's unfair but then not properly define what is fairer because that in itself is an incredibly complex issue to unravel. If it is inherently unfair you at least need to seriously consider what is a better/fairer/more equal split so we all feel that a different split is a better way to go

I made it very clear to you that I was not taking umbrage at your questioning of my logic, but of you accusing me of not trying to be fair.

I agree that the Care Inspectorate is more about box ticking than actual child welfare. The amount of time my son's after school club (which I'm very happy with) have to spend on form filling and administration is ridiculous.

I know that there needs to be an effective way of evaluating childcare facilities - but the current situation seems to be more about box ticking.

I also think that government nurseries could be very good - if they are appropriately resourced, properly funded and, crucially, childcaring is recognised as a valued profession with carers paid accordingly. I think it deserves the same respect as nursing (I know some nurses will argue with me on that but RGNs for examplereceive a good salary with pay progression).

That's very much the problem. There seem to be two approaches - UKIP and "nah it's not a problem." Not much in between and not, from what I've seen, much proper rationale delivered on the softer side which would be good enough to convince people who are concerned. UKIP have a solid run at it. Definitely a problem from that perspective since they're hideous!

I think our immigration policy should be much more like Australia's, however, while we are in the EU that is hard to enforce really.

Oh, did I mention the box ticking?

I presume your Care Inspectorate it the equivalent of our Ofsted?

I swear they wouldn't recognise an actual child if it bit them.

if they are appropriately resourced, properly funded and, crucially, childcaring is recognised as a valued profession with carers paid accordingly.

This!

I've heard that there's proposals afoot to make teaching a Masters-level profession. Surely we could make early years childcare part of this? Obviously not Masters-level, but what about degree level?

And we need far more men involved too.

Not really Chipping - link to the Care Inspectorate Website here.

Sorry chipping you've completely lost me - I've looked back over what Ive said & still can't see where you are getting the accusation that I said you weren't trying to be fair. But I'm not going round in circles on this, my posts are there for all to see so I'll leave it there.

Immigration in my view is not worth worrying about. I despair about how politicians make so much of it. So really disappointing in this global economy. It's propaganda by ukip and the daily fail trying to make everyone sit up and get annoyed.
It really is not worth worrying about in my opinion.