to really regret the whole grammar school thing.

[newrecruit]

DS1 is in year 4 (DS2 in year 1).

I went to a girls grammar school and loved it. So when we moved out of London one of the reasons we chose this area was the schools. I don't think we are super selective (don't quite know what that means)

However, I was explaining the schools to him this morning as we drove past one and had an impending feeling of doom.

He's bright but can't be arsed. Resists pushing and I am against tutor on principal. I don't think he'd suit an all boys school.

What have I done! We should have just moved to a comprehensive area with a decent intake.

Some parents are already talking about tutors and its 2 years away. I want to hit them quite hard.

Please pile in and tell me to get a grip.

"But how do you have someone 'very top of the year' either?

Surely they are either just 'top' in their year, or they are not? I don't understand the concept of 'very' top...?"

Badly phrased colloquialism. Intended to mean he is the top of the top set. But hardly worth harping on about!

Could you show me where I have disparaged academic achievement?

Or disparaged anything- except the selective system as a whole.

In grammar areas, the grammar pupils are the brightest, and they are the best academically.

Absolutely not true. Some parents chose not to get their children to sit the 11+, and some children haven't been tutored within an inch of their lives in order to pass it.

We moved into a feeder county for grammar schools just as DS1 went into Yr6. Within 2 days of him being at school, we were advised to get him to sit the 11+ and were told "he would walk it". DH and I discussed it and decided against it. We looked at all the schools available, the length of the school day, the travelling involved and decided what was best for him.

We chose the catchment school which was a a comprehensive, in a very naice area,a much nicer area than the single sexed grammars. We thought DS1 would thrive there and he did. When the GCSE results came out, he was top boy, 2nd overall in the school to a girl, but had more facilitating subjects. He passed some GCSEs with 100%.

He had a very happy time at school. He was respected as a person for being approachable and friendly. They had vertical tutoring at his school so younger DC were mixed with older ones at tutor time, they used to seek him out when they had a problem and bought him chocolates and cards when he left. He was House Captain and never experienced any bullying or piss taking for being clever. I, nor he, would ever want him lauded for being clever!

DS2 did extremely well at the same school, is now on course for 3 As at A level and a RG uni, if' he chooses, next September.

My mate, from the same village, decided to put her DD in for 11+ and she passed. She sent her to the girls' grammar. She lasted a term before she had to take her out because she was so badly bullied for the colour of her hair! She went to the same comp as my kids after, and did incredibly well there.

I went to the local town last week when the girls were all making their way home from their wonderful grammar school. I had the misfortune to be in a shop at the same time as some of them, I am disabled and they said "mind the cripple!" .

The grammar school I am talking about is the one that a certain poster keeps harping on about as being so wonderful and how her DD is going to be mixing with nice children. I would beg to differ.

Interesting, Fairy!
Failure of lower set pupils to 'laud' the top set is one of the funniest things I have read on this thread!

I am quite interested, LaQueen, in all this bullying of the tops sets you saw as a TA. When did it happen? What did it consist of? What did the SMT do about it when you reported it to them?

As with all schools there are things which my daughter's selective school does well, and things which need to be improved on.

When my daughter was still in Year 6, we went to an evening for new parents. The idea was that parents whose child would be in a particular form could sit round long oval tables and get to know each other. The tables were and chairs were all pretty jumbled, so it was quite hard to weave your way through.

I was there quite early and noticed a woman about my age in a wheelchair, staring at the jumble of chairs from the entrance. The man who'd accompanied her was staring at the room, helplessly. There were various parents, staff members and prefects around. None of them did anything, beyond looking and looking away. I found this horrific. So I went over towards the entrance, started shoving chairs back and - having established her daughter would be in my daughter's form - invited her to come and sit on the table with me.

So awareness of Equal Opportunities/access was clearly not going to be a strength, I thought....

The other somewhat unpleasant incident came in about Year 8. The drama group were doing a play that was, I think, set in Germany after the Holocaust. My own family is descended from Holocaust survivors and my daughter in some distress, reported that a number of her classmates were using this as an occasion for 'humour' about the fate of the Jews. When I rang the Drama Teacher she was extremely helpful about sorting this out.

It's more that both issues seemed to highlight the ways in which apparently 'clever' people can behave in a way that is 'ignorant.'

This is a bit of a hijack (sorry), but does anyone know the percentage of children in Birmingham who go to Grammar schools? Is the Birmingham system "super-selective"?

some children haven't been tutored within an inch of their lives in order to pass it.

This is such a hackneyed phrase.

You can't tutor a child to pass the 11+, who is not capable of passing. Tutoring just means that they will hopefully not lose marks through:

a) unfamiliarity with the layout of the question paper and answer
sheet.
b) not having been taught a particular topic which comes up in the exam.
c) poor time management.

Yes, they are all things that could be addressed by parents at home, but just because they are addressed instead by a tutor doesn't give those children any unfair advantage or mean they have been 'hothoused'.

I don't know of any children who have been tutored 'within an inch of their lives'. Just the standard hour a week, with varying amounts of practice in between!

But surely both the children who have had all this from a tutor and the children who've had it from their parents have an advantage over those who have had neither?

I'm not sure I agree that familiarity (and perhaps more importantly confidence) with the layout and requirements of the paper, or knowledge of a 'particular topic' are things which all parents are capable of helping with, to be honest.

And if the parents who can do it, or pay for it, are just making certain that the child doesn'r drop a few marks, they're doing it because they know that dropping a few marks can mean the difference between passing or failing, and losing your place to a child who didn't drop them, obviously. So the children whose parents have done their utmost to make sure that didn't happen are making sure that a child who wasn't tutored in any way doesn't get 'their' place. That's the unpalatable truth, IMO.

"Yes, they are all things that could be addressed by parents at home, but just because they are addressed instead by a tutor doesn't give those children any unfair advantage or mean they have been 'hothoused'."

No. But whoever addresses these things, the child who has someone to address them for her has the advantage over a child that doesn't. And it is likely that the child with somebody addressing them is a privileged child. The sort of child who populate grammar schools.

No I didn't report it to the school LaQueen because there would have been no point. I don't know who the girls were, I only know what school they came from. I doubt very much that the HT would have got them all in to assembly and asked who

Gosh, it didn't take you long to get involved with the school, tbh I don't know how you find the time you always seem to be doing something!

Nit If someone told DS1 he should be lauded for being clever he'd laugh in their face!

I think you might have missed my question, LaQueen- so i'llrepeat it for ease.

"I am quite interested, LaQueen, in all this bullying of the tops sets you saw as a TA. When did it happen? What did it consist of? What did the SMT do about it when you reported it to them?"

You'd think a grammar school would be able to come up with work that stretches bright pupils, though, surely!

It's so very disingenous, all this 'just a teeny little bit of help to make sure they don't drop marks and then they never ever find anything difficult again'.

Obviously and luckily vast majority pass comfortably, never need further tuition, cope comfortably with the work and get excellent exam results. A lot of pupils really don't find the lessons or work that hard at all.

Not in my experience as the parent of a grammar school child. There's a lot of peer mentoring to try and get the weaker children - usually those who've been intensively tutored- to keep up to the expected standard. The high incidence of, for example anorexia and depression and/or self-sharm, indicate that not all children are coping comfortably. A significant number of students will be weeded out after their GCSE results are not deemed satisfactory, rather than being allowed to progress to Years 12 and 13.

It's you who are doing the twisting, LQ, because I didn't say anything of the kind. The fact is, there are limited places at a grammar school, yes? If you don't get one, someone else will. So you make sure it's not your child who misses out, and the actual fact of the matter is, that means another one does.

I'm sure lots of perfectly nice people in that situation would get pragmatic, and do the tutoring with a heavy heart and all that, because as you say, they put their own child first. Just don't pretend it's all very very easy and anyone can do it - you do it because you know it narrows the odds for your child, and you know you don't want them to fail.

Interesting and depressing, Fairy. The worst case of non physical bullying I have ever come across was anti Semitic too, and in a very selective school indeed. Maybe bright well educated children know about being anti Semitic specifically? As opposed to just generalised racism?

I used to teach in a grammar school. I don't think its true that they all sail through and sail comfortably. Its a big shock for a lot of them to go from being the "clever one" or the "top set" to being one of many.

It's also quite telling when someone has been excessively tutored to get in. Students do struggle and some of them would be better to be in the top sets in the comp than struggle at the grammar. You get girls that are disappointed with a B they worked hard for as they see it as failure...

When I went, v few people were tutored. I actually wasn't planning on tutoring my girls as I don't think its quite right (I would have bought practice papers so they can see what the test is). Mn makes me think everyone is tutoring and they'd be at disadvantage not to. That kind of thingis another reason I don't like the grammar/comp set up. Race up the greasy pole to the top.

Only on mumsnet? Don't be silly. No-one needs to be on mumsnet to realise that the 11+ has always acted to select the children of proactive parents who knew/know how to effectively support their children with exams and homework.

Yes, Stripy I'd agree that the transition to Year 7 is particularly hard for those who have been very very able at their primary school and are now 'just one of the pack.' Also about the lack of proportion where anything less than an A grade is seen as failure.

Stripy / Marianne I suspect the point about children getting in, post-tutoring, and then never finding a thing difficult ever again, is perhaps a strategy that is necessitated to sustain the slightly illogical claim that a bright child who would ace the 11+ anyway, and very clearly belongs in a grammar, also had regular coaching for the test! It doesn't make a huge amount of sense otherwise, certainly.

So 7-8 years ago? How many incidents? How many schools? And none of the SMTs at any of the schools it happened at did anything?