to really regret the whole grammar school thing.

[newrecruit]

DS1 is in year 4 (DS2 in year 1).

I went to a girls grammar school and loved it. So when we moved out of London one of the reasons we chose this area was the schools. I don't think we are super selective (don't quite know what that means)

However, I was explaining the schools to him this morning as we drove past one and had an impending feeling of doom.

He's bright but can't be arsed. Resists pushing and I am against tutor on principal. I don't think he'd suit an all boys school.

What have I done! We should have just moved to a comprehensive area with a decent intake.

Some parents are already talking about tutors and its 2 years away. I want to hit them quite hard.

Please pile in and tell me to get a grip.

I just don't understand why we're tinkering at the margins. The very fact that action is being taken shows there's a problem. Despite the pro grammar brigade denying it for years. So just get rid of the rump and move on.

Could you link to the research,please?

Gosh.

"If you had actually personal experience of real comps, or had worked in several of them I think you would see that all too often the top set kids don't get an easy ride in the playground, PE, in the corridors, in the dining hall...because they are surrounded by plenty of other kids who are cheesed off and resentful of their ability and achievements."

This was my rather unhappy experience at school.

We're not in a grammar area, but my kids are at academically selective independent schools where no, they won't encounter anyone with an IQ below 120. They also do "ordinary" activities out of school where there are plenty of kids with IQs well below 120. I've found it works much better than when they were in the state primary with these kids, because now there's no resentment to carry over. DS can go to Scouts and pitch tents, play football etc. with kids who aren't academic high flyers without it being endless carping about he's a swot - because they simply don't get to see him in an academic situation! Cubs used to be a bit of a trial for him, especially the evening after something like a maths test.

I don't think it's such an issue for the really social ones (like my DD) who find it easy to make friends and seem to get on with everyone - or maybe it's a girl/boy thing?

Once again, there's a very interesting thread about this with posts from children currently at real comprehensives today.

"not typically the attitude of the top sets toward the bottom set was that they wanted to avoid them where possible, just because they were (rightly) wary of them."

Because, as we all know, niceness is in direct proportion to brain power.
My ds is, as you know, in the very topmost set of a high school. He has been in two fights. One because he is a Liverpool supporter. One because he had a run in with another boy on the football pitch at the weekend, and it spilled over into school. However, he has been pushed into the road, had his bag chucked over a wall and regularly been abused by boys from the grammar school because he is "at the chav school". He decided to stop going to a particular after school activity because it was dominated by grammar school boys and he got fed up with their attitude. I do not say this is typical- or even common. But I do get very fed up with the suggestion that clever means somehow better. Oh, and my dd was mildly bullied at her grammar school because she was in set 5 for maths "with the mouth breathers" (I quote). So bullying happens everywhere. Grammar schools are not sunlit uplands of delight and tolerance.

And I have refrained from talking about ds's experience for ages because I suspect it will not go down well.

But "typically the attitude of the top sets toward the bottom set was that they wanted to avoid them where possible, just because they were (rightly) wary of them."nod rove me to it!

"Cleverer doesn't mean better. It usually just means they are cleverer. But there was certainly much less kicking off and aggro in the top set lessons compared to the bottom sets, IME."

Ah. Bit of a backtrack here. That's nice to see. No more "brightest and best" then?

I don't know about middle class aspirations- but my high expectations for my own- and other people's - chdren i would have thought were plain to see. " Very top most set" is a typo. I was going to say very top of the year then changed it to top set but didn't delete properly. Sorry not to have said something more entertaining.

Shameful middle class aspirations! You see them all over MN, don't you?

Who's disparaging academic achievement though? I've not seen that anywhere, I don't think.

'very top' is, I suppose, faintly redundant (no more so than 'brightest and best', of course), but it reads rather as though you're nit-picking for no real reason and with an unpleasant agenda, I'm afraid.

Kids in Set 5 Maths in a Comprehensive, get called a lot worse than "mouth Breathers".

I would take very top to mean clearly above everyone else, as opposed to in a group of the most able dc (amongst whom there may be no clear leader). Some clarification of 'top' might be needed as there is a tendency for people to use 'top' to mean top table or sub group rather than overall #1 But why are we arguing over such semantics? Top, or very top, it really doesn't matter to the debate.

Laqueen
"Top" in a comp is a fluid thing
BECAUSE
the school has everybody with varying skills

The "top" athlete may be trying out for the Olympic team but in set 5 maths
The "top" musician may be in the National Youth Orchestra but is in set 3 for English
The "top" mathematician may be in the national Olympiad but is set 4 for MFL

"Very Top" means top in several subjects
they are a rare breed
there wasn't one in DD's year, there was in the year above.

We are waiting for DS's results...I still have no idea to whether he will pass or not. We are in Bucks, so the choices aren't great.
I do find myself hoping, however that the bully of the class passes & is shipped off to the 'highly academic, best of the best Grammar' that his mother has earmarked for him.

Talkin - yes indeed. Also alll members of sets are very aware they could be moved up or down (well, only one of those possibilities in the case of top and bottom of course), which I think is a good thing.

Plus3
Love it