To ask all Scottish MNers to join in and work together?

[SantanaLopez]

No gloating.
No blaming.

Just appreciation for a huge turnout and a peaceful process.

Toadinthehole I agree. I am not as informed as you are but I am also under the impression that some of the other positions laid out in the white paper - such as sharing a central bank with the UK and having a separate currency union with the UK would not have been compatible with EU membership, or at the very least would have required negotiation of a unique exception.

The increased GDP per head of population (assuming geographic share of oil revenue) would have resulted in having a larger cost of membership - especially as inheriting UK's rebate would be impossible.

But criticism of these points was denounced as scaremongering etc.

A currency union would certainly have had ramifications for Scotland's EU membership. Entry for Scotland on those terms would have required the unanimous agreement of all member states including the rUK - as would Scotland's entry even on the standard terms. That would have required the agreement of not only the Spanish, but also the Westminster establishment.

It really isn't clear to me what the SNP considered Scotland's best currency option to be. In the past it has supported the Euro. My view is that the currency union was simply a campaigning device designed to win over the waverers. Advocating it was a win-win option: either the UK government would have indicated that they would agree to this, or, alternatively, they would have to despatch an overprivileged Tory to refute the suggestion and inevitably create resentment. This is, of couse, what happened with Osborne's "sermon on the pound".

Simple manipulation by Alex Salmond. It was a clever tactic, but one that lowered the quality of the debate. He deserves to be blamed for that.

Two questions for those of you who are considering voting SNP:

1. should independence remain in the manifesto?

1. If the SNP were the largest party would you push for another referendum?

Since the inception of the Scottish Government who I vote for Scottish elections has been and will continue to be determined solely by which party has the best chance of ensuring there are as few SNP msps as possible. I couldn't bear going through this again.

Toadinthehole Some of the arguments going round made me wince. Examples of these were: it was impossible to strip Scots of EU citizenship, Scotland was already a member (yes Nicola Sturgeon, I'm looking at you)

the Yes campaign insisted the EU membership and continued use of the pound was an absolute given, and anyone who said otherwise was lying.

I agree. I have been saying this all along. As you say, its not a difficult issue and any undergraduate law student would get it right quite easily because EU Law is a compulsory course for all law students. I found that very dishonest and I think it took advantage of people who couldn't be expected to know the legal position.

Nicola Sturgeon is a qualified lawyer whose date of qualification means that she would have passed a course in EU Law.

In terms of her performance, my observations are more subjective. She is an impressive political orator, whether or not she is effective is a different matter. It seems to be a style based on bombarding her supporters with what they want to hear, very fast talking with little listening or concern for alternative viewpoints, not very concillatory. I would assume she could modify it depending on the situation, as it would tend to alienate anyone with more knowledge or an opposing position.

roonerspism you hate nationalism (Scottish) but a no vote was a vote for British nationalism... ironic much?

Since the inception of the Scottish Government who I vote for Scottish elections has been and will continue to be determined solely by which party has the best chance of ensuring there are as few SNP msps as possible. I couldn't bear going through this again.

Hi Phaedra
Pretty sure you will be going through this again. It's just a matter of when...

One thing that has come out is that the Scots are funded per person far more than England meaning that they can spend this on free university and free prescriptions. Surely this isn't fair and the Barnett Formula needs urgent revie

Oh FFS!! Is this the crap we still have to read here???

Can I f spell it out once and for all - even though Scotland gets £1600 per person more per head then England on average because of the Barnett formula - THEY PUT MORE THAN THIS IN!! YES - DONT KEEL OVER IN SHOCK - Scottish people actually pay taxes to and it was even conformed on the ITN news the other night when Tom Bradbury reported this...but oh no don't let this get in the way of your dig at Scotland getting subsidised eh...so is that clear - we put more than this in, and have done, apart from 1 year for years!

Yes I'm pissed and yes I'm sick of English misconceptions about the funding Scotland receives.

Free prescriptions in Scotland comes out of the Health budget for the NHS - Westminster has a health budget for the NHS in England to - you want free prescriptions you lobby your MP then instead of moaning how Scotland gets them. Out of the English health budget money gets spent on services more than in Scotland instead for example certain cancer services and walk in centres.

And even though the vote was no, the issue of independence is not going to go away just because some people says it should. Yes I accept the result, no I don't believe there was any rigging or conspiracy, and yes I'm sure that one day Scotland will become independent. 1.6 million people voted for this - yes campaign lost, but doesn't mean this will always be the case.

Of course the question will be out to the Scottish people again, it's just a matter of when.

Just one reason why ...

If you look at the age breakdown of votes, it was largely older people who swung it to No overall (e.g. 73% "no" in the 65+ age group) with younger voters going "Yes" (e.g. 71% "Yes" for 16 & 17 year olds, and a majority for "Yes" for voters aged between 25 and 54).

Given those stats, it looks fairly possible that with time, Yes will become the majority position, wouldn't you say? And if so, there will most likely be widespread support for another referendum in Scotland.

that should say " put to the Scottish people" not "out to" !

wiggly my friend actually mentioned this to me today about the 73%. Doesnt surprise me, more likely to have less access to social media and more likely to be scared of change.

So all the " once in a life-time " stuff and tear-jerking about being denied the only opportunity is basically just hot air?

Rather than concentrating on doing any real good and working with the other parties you prefer a party which, as Robin Harper put it , is fixated on rearranging the constitutional deck - chairs.

You do know that poll of young people was based on an absurdly small number?

Oh and nice bit of patronising of older people there " scared of change" and less involved with social media. As if something as important as this should depend on comments on a Facebook page.

I don't use any social media apart from this and a music forum. I don't have a Facebook account , I don't follow anyone on Twitter.

Maybe older people are more able to critically assess information and demand evidence. Maybe the younger voters are more susceptible to believing stuff on social media because their friends 'like' it.

Edith exactly.

Tinkerball

Scotland doesn't get more from Barnett because it puts in more. Nor should it.

That's no different to saying that rich people should be entitled to more public services because they pay more tax.

So happy that the downfall of the UK was averted-well done the Scottish people for realising that they were just following one man's pipe dream-it is amazing how many sensible people were drawn in and fired-up over a pie in the sky! Thank heaven the sensible one's realised that two halves cost MUCH more than one whole-everyone would have suffered and possibly Scotland would have been in the same situation as many other underfunded countries like Greece, Iceland, Ireland etc. HOORAY for the Scots!

Scotland gets more because so many people are scattered across rural areas, so it costs more to deliver services. Unless there is a plan to clear the Highlands again and drive everyone down this will always be the case. By working out the amount given to Scotland per head makes it appear we are each getting more than England and Wales and is allowing some to exploit this fact to inflame the situation even more.

Not according to the person who devised the formula. Scotland gets more per capita, just because.

This is in contrast to every other part of the UK. Places like Northern Ireland and London get high funding per capita, while other places like the English North East get less, but the funding is made according to the same criteria. Scotland is the exception. And to make it absolutely clear, funding is not allocated according to tax receipts. Otherwise the wealthy South East of England would receive more funding per capita than the much less wealthy Northern Ireland. Allocating funding on the basis of tax receipts would be utterly, starkly, grossly, appallingly unfair.

It is odd how people think that Scotland get more ££ through the Barnett Formula because they have either more people living in rural areas or because they think they put more in - they think they know better than Barnett himself

If you are going to SHOUT at people

Toad your earlier post about the EU. I just cannot understand why so many people were taken in by AS & NS on this (and so many other things). The information is out there, it's not that hard to find, it was being brought to people's attention but they were going 'la la lalalalalalala it'll be fine in Utopia - stop scaremongering... llalalallalalalala'.

It is worrying.

Tinkerball

wiggly my friend actually mentioned this to me today about the 73%. Doesnt surprise me, more likely to have less access to social media and more likely to be scared of change

Oh dear - poor little old people having to actually read & understand stuff and form opinions on facts when they could just use facebook and 'like' 'Utopia Rulz' instead. Evil old 'coffin dodgers' (as one charming yes poster called them the other day) being selfish... tut tut.

Tinkerball do you know how many people from Scotland go to England to use NHS England for treatment for all kinds of specialist care and transplants? If Scotland were funding their own specialists & services they would find that they had less money to spend on Free Prescriptions.

I don't want that. I don't see the point in paying for specialists in both countries - but some acknowledgement of things like that would be appreciated instead of banging on about how you choose to spend you NHS budget differently.

(I know that payment for treatment comes out of NHS Scotland (or assume it still does anyway) but that doesn't cover the cost of having those services available for everyone to use).

That's without going into the fact that people from Scotland have access to a UK wide donor pool of 65m - somewhat upping their chances of finding a donor.

I don't believe the young were any more inclined to yes than the older - based on my sample, which is pretty much as small as that posted as 'fact'. Given that a secret ballot is the cornerstone of democracy we will never know.

I think with Salmond gone, SNP will be pretty much a spent force. I didn't like him, but he was a remarkable politician and Nicola Sturgeon is not in the same league. There is a dearth of anyone else of any substance in the SNP, so hopefully we can put this behind us and accept the UK remains and work within those parameters.

Many of the older people I spoke to spoke of post-war austerity. They had seen really hard times. One older guy grabbed my hand with tears in his eyes thanking me for campaigning for no.

I think as you get older, you become less swayed by flags and shouty parades and you have seen enough wars and battles on the planet to appreciate a status quo that, all round, is pretty wonderful. You are more cynical of politicians promising you oil utopia. You really do not want a decade of severe austerity thank you very much Mr Salmond. I have said it before - the guy's plan was "it will be all right on the night" and I remain astonished that so many are blind to that.

I have huge respect for the elderly because look at what they have lived through.

Whoever mentioned the irony in my vote, you have a fair point and it is something I have reflected on a lot. The planet is already divided into certain states and nationalism always involves a further division of those states. In the world we live in, there has to be a pretty good reason to do that, especially when we are fighting some of the things we are now (I was always amazed no one mentioned national security in the last few weeks). Further, for me, historically, this idea of nationalism has often meant violence and bloodshed eg Hitler's Germany, Yugoslavia, African states, all over. Of course I am not crassly associating the SNP with that, but it does mean that I do not inherently agree with nationalism as a concept. I think it stirs up a "them and us" sentiment that can be catastrophic. For Salmond to have persuaded me, based on that sentiment, would have been a huge ask but it might have been possible with a White Paper that wasn't a bloody fairy tale and a response to "nay-sayers" with anything other than "scaremongering!". It became laughable to me, and the older generation turned off then. His blind optimism was his fatal error.

And, more basically, as a resident of south Scotland, poverty in north England matters just as much to me as poverty further north. Even if it was true, an "oil bonanza" Scotland very much would mean "well, we are alright Jack, bugger the rest of you".

But we cannot go through this again. Not soon. We have had a clear vote and it's been costly and divisive. That's it - for at least a generation. I have real fears that a very small minority will turn it into an excuse to launch a Scottish violent independence movement. I have a feeling we may be feeling the shock waves of Mr Salmond for some time yet.