To fear the outcome of Indyref?

[thehajduk]

My husband is half Scottish and half English and I am seriously worried that he will be heartbroken on Thursday if Scotland votes Yes! He is worried that our little boy's British identity will be undermined. Thus he took this picture and is hoping that all of us who care will take a similar photo with a similar message to show Scotland that we care.
Not all of us get to vote, and it’s Scotland’s decision - and Scotland’s alone - to make. But all 60 million of us care what that decision is, and we have a few days now to show everyone in Scotland how much.

We shared this message on Facebook and Twitter and many have followed - here is our hope that those of us on Mumsnet who care about the British identity of our children will follow.

Please take your photo and choose your hashtag #LetsStayTogether #PleaseDontGo #NoThanks

My issue with Salmond is that I think he's got so close to his goal that he has lost a bit of perspective. I think he's been less than scrupulous in the run up to this (not saying he's the only one.) But this shouldn't have been run in the same style as an election campaign with one side yelling at the other. I think it's been really counterproductive.

Well shame on us Rita.

Just as well no one was judging Sir Winston Churchill on his looks.

Bright, Salmond looks very like (an older, fatter version) of an great friend of mine. I have problems separating the two in my mind. My pal is such a great guy, I couldn't possibly hate Wee Eck!

I shared a flight with Wee Eck once. He was a right pain in the bum - the air hostess had to tell him to sit the heck down as he was holding the whole plane up (having boarded late on a delayed flight which I think was delayed for him and his contingent)

Mind, he was also travelling with a guy in full clan chieftain get up which was quite funny.

Bright not sure what your point is ? I wasn't commenting on his looks - merely the fact that holding strong,passionate opinions is not of itself automatically admirable.

This is an aside as you meant "insult" and weren't using it in a technical sense but it grates hearing references to slander (or libel) in a Scottish context. And I do see it frequently misused in a technical sense.

salmond is sleekit and manipulative and casual with the truth [tho he can be very nice too] I'll be voting NO to save clyde shipbuilding jobs

Phaedra my point was that I try to remain respectful of those with sincerely held view points even when I disagree with them.

I don't make unpleasant personal remarks about them or tell lies about them. I don't believe that I stated or implied anything about your opinions or behaviour I was just picking up on your example of Dr Paisley as someone whose views I disagreed with.

Alex Salmond seems to have been the target of quite a number of personal attacks. I don't think this is the price that our representatives (from any party ) should have to pay.

Oh and in fact I am fully acquainted with the definition of the word slander. I didn't mean insult, I meant slander. I'm sure that you meant to be helpful but I am left feeling a tiny bit patronised. I'm sure that's just my perception though and was an unintended consequence of your comment. Rest assured I am really quite well educated and don't use big words I don't understand.

Again, never seen a nation yet in possession of something people need or want to buy that went unrecognised for long . . .

I'm assuming you are in Scotland. If so you defame someone, not slander him. Slander is a concept of English law.

We have resources to sell, yes, But it is debatable whether we have enough especially given the currency options they seem hell bent on following.

Phaedra as I'm not standing in a court of law I'm quite happy with the use of 'slander' which is perfectly acceptable common parlance, even in Scotland.

I was born in England but have a 3/4 Scottish immediate ancestry. This is precisely why I do not fear Scottish independence. I do not care if England and Scotland become separate countries. It will not stop us sharing a common experience or empathy with one another. It will not stopping us sharing culture or co-operating with one another. I feel English and living in Scotland does nothing to change this. I do not feel the need to proclaim Britishness or claim the label 'British' to denote a connection with the people of Scotland, England or Wales. I think and feel that connection and it goes beyond the mere label 'British'. Voting 'Yes' for me is about fairness and saying 'Yes, there is such a thing as society.'

What are the 'Yes' voters feelings about how the indyref threads became such a 'No' clique? I felt that the 'No' voters were sneered at as stupid and nationalist or accused of being unfeeling about the mental health and anxiety of some of the 'No' voters. It was a mixture of condescension and emotional blackmail.

I don't like the attacks on Salmond, but I don't see he's had worse than the BT leading lights have had. Also, throughout his career, he has pursued a fine line of elaborate put downs. They are often very funny, but nevertheless, they remain personal attacks.

I'll be absolutely gutted if there's a majority yes vote.

I don't want to leave UK, to spend years negotiating how to dismantle it. It's so easy to blame our problems on WM forgetting we've had a recession and climate changes that have pushed up the price of food.

I don't trust DC - but I definitely don't trust AS either - the impression I get is that he's a bully. He talked over AD appallingly in the second tv debate and made points that were bound to be misleading (et, quoting projected oil turnover figures as if they were oil revenues.) He said the other day that the WM politicians are held in "contempt" by the people of Scotland. What a disgraceful way for a first minister to talk. That business about the 'legal advice' about joining the EU that he contested in court, wasting taxpayers' money in the process. All the talk of how it's only a tiny minority of the Scottish electorate who voted conservative - em just the 400,000. Note how he never mentions that the paucity of conservative mps is a northern thing - it's not specific to Scotland. How many conservative voters are there in the NE of England? He has failed to condemn the bad behaviour of campaigners - the vandalism, verbal abuse etc - not statesmanlike. his claims that we will have a CU with rUK - despite the fact that nobody to my knowledge has said it would be a good thing for Scotland or rUK and it looks unlikely to go ahead in the event of a majority yes vote anyway. I am angry.

The referendum was triggered by the SNP getting a majority of seats in the Scottish parliament in the last election - though not an outright majority. No other party is in favour of independence. So the onus should be on the SNP to say why we should have independence - what it would involve. They haven't done that - they've said we'll be even richer and have a fairer and more just society, but the only details of how this is going to be achieved are proposed policies that would be in direct competition with
rUK: lowering corporation tax for the biggest businesses, (Jim McColl who lives in Monaco perhaps or Donald Trump, the American businessman who managed to evict people from their land with the help of AS despite a huge public outcry) and halving passenger duty on flights - not exactly green is it? Unless we are an oppressed minority with a different language or religion unable to express ourselves or practise our different religion there's no reason to claim the right to self-determination just for the sake of it in the case of the UK and the SNP haven't said exactly how scotland would be different from rUK in the event of independence.

We have everything to lose by voting yes - a long established parliament, a second chamber, the goodwill of rUK, (our main export market is rUK) a strong economy, many many talented academics, scientists, nationwide agencies, regulatory bodies, unions etc, our place in the EU, a very diverse population, a massive defence force which combined with our long history of democracy gives us influence in the rest of the world, the massive economy of London...

for what? For the right to negotiate for years on the best way to grab as much of the oil as we can for ourselves, for our right to supposedly improve the lot of the people in Scotland, with no regard the people of rUK. And we would still have an unelected head of state , ie the Queen, still have trident on the same small landmass.

the indyref threads were started by a yes voter. They are and remain free for everyone to post on, unless the rules of MN have changed.

The description of yes voters being 'deluded' isn't a slight on their character or intelligence - it means that in the opinion of many no voters, many yes voters have been mislead/are wrong about what they think will happen.

I honestly think that Scotland separating from UK would achieve nothing.
There's nothing to suggest that the Scottish electorate/politicians would do a better job than WM politicans. That's no meant as an insult to anyone - to think that Scottish people are fairer or somehow superior to rUK is just insulting to the people of rUK.

I think it's a bit off to accuse posters of being a clique frankly. I could say the Yes voters were a clique, and produce evidence for it too now doubt, it's the nature of discussion where there are essentially two sides of the argument.

Plenty of times people who made unacceptable comments on either side were called on it.

Good morning, I am still here but was dealing with teething probs last night. Glad to hear that most of us agree on UKIP :)

Ah, trident.

My hope would be that rUK would decide to go for the decommissioning of trident but that doesn't seem likely. And the irony is it could theoretically be put in the tweed and Scotland would still cop it but at least then it wouldn't be within 25 miles of our most densely populated city.

Fantastic, being called deluded isn't a slight on my character? Damn insulting whichever way you dress it up.

Nick your description of what the threads have become aware pretty spot.

The question is not 'if' Scotland can be independent, 'if' it can be a member of the EU - eventually, 'if' it can use the pound, etc. - No. The question is on what terms. I find this video by a Scottish professor of constitutional law spot on.

Any country can be independent if it wants. If Montenegro and Moldova can be independent, Scotland certainly can. But even the most positive cases for Scottish independence currently fail to provide for anything like the conditions required even to maintain present levels of prosperity, representation and influence. Nominal independence does not amount to practical autonomy. So if Scotland's residents want greater control of their lives, and of the quality of those lives, then the best available information and analysis points to remaining part of the UK as being the preferred option.

So if a case needs to be made for Scotland separating itself from the rest of the UK - and in my opinion a convincing practical case is yet to be made - let it be advocated with a realistic vision of what independence practically means for Scotland. And if people want to be politically independent whatever the cost, at least then it will have been a genuine choice.

Nick I agree with you.
The Indy ref threads have long since ceased to be about debate and discussion.
They actually started out like that with probably an equal number of yes and no's, and some of the discussion was quite interesting.

However, it very quickly became cliquey with a few posters adopting a very supercilious tone, and some of the attitudes and name calling towards people who had the temerity to disagree with their no arguments them has been awful

I bowed out ages ago. Still post an odd comment here and there, but it have found the drama and histrionics by some posters far too wearing.
There are loads of other threads/ forums all over the internet about Scottish Independence which are must less hostile and welcoming to everyone, not just who are voting no.

I was pursued by one poster on the threads who was casting slurs against my character and misquoting me left right and centre yet no one pulled her up on that.

Then you get sad faces all round and they lament the evil yes voters ripping their country apart, most seemingly unable to acknowledge that they aren't the only ones who'll be heartbroken if the vote doesn't go their way. Ad infinitum.

It's draining.

You can see that by the comment I made in jest when talking about offering my elderly neighbours a lift to the polling station. When every comment you make is twisted and misconstrued like that, intentionally, it's impossible to function.