Indyref 12 - keeping the ball rolling

[flippinada]

Hope everyone doesn't mind, I'm to keep the discussion going. As you were folks :)

I apologise if you were offended earlier. It was certainly not my intention to directly compare Yes voters with Nazis. That would be inaccurate and offensive. Someone eloquently explained this on my behalf - thank you.

But seeing the frenzied braying crowds whipped up by Salmond, and the anti-English sentiments as a result has set much history in context for me. If you had told me a few weeks ago we would have had anti-BBC demonstrations, and bottles thrown and politicians chased out of shopping centres, I simply would not believe you.

When watching the bombing in Ukraine, and the civil unrest we are currently seeing, you simply cannot help but query the wisdom of ardent nationalism.

Fear does indeed breed intolerance. I was a child in the recession of the 80s and and watched the family business fail and our family lose our house and my parents divorce. It was true hardship. I have worked my backside off to avoid this for my kids but through no choice of my own, it could be enforced on me. My DH is beside himself with worry. We are arguing. The kids are already affected. We are already planning for him to move south. It is utterly desperate for ordinary families who will be directly affected by this.

I am generally a very tolerant individual but I am extremely anxious and afraid for the future come Friday if this goes the wrong way. So forgive my impatience at my fellow Scots who are getting us all into this. Most of them have no bloody idea what true hardship is like.

TeamScotland - 30 years? Where did you get that idea from? More like 10.

No wonder AS and NS are quietly yet mysteriously confident of creating jobs in an independent Scotland. All those state informers and nasty neighbourhood enforcers should mop up the unemployment figures.

Rooners Good to see you back.

This was posted on another thread (& other similar comments are all over the place - fret not)

My granny who is German and stood against the Nazis, getting jailed in the process insists 'this is how it all started back home', and I don't doubt her

When watching the bombing in Ukraine, and the civil unrest we are currently seeing, you simply cannot help but query the wisdom of ardent nationalism.

Definitely not.

I don't understand how people can mock or make light of the position you and many others find yourselves in, through no fault of your own. It is sad and yes, shocking.


Don't go, stay and worry with the rest of us.

Is this democracy in action? Experienced journalists don't think so.Tom Bradbury on his blog says he is not enjoying covering the Scottish referendum campaign for ITN.

"Pretty much all reporters I chatted to yesterday agreed that the level of abuse and even intimidation being meted out by some in the ‘Yes’ campaign was making this referendum a rather unpleasant experience.

And whilst I am sure both sides have been guilty, the truth - uncomfortable as it is to say it – is that most of the heckling and abuse does seem to be coming from the Nationalists.

I have been with ITN for 25 years and have covered events all over the world in that time. I’m not going to suggest that this bears comparison with really bad places, but it is certainly highly unusual in the democratic world.

For example, my first major job as a correspondent was in Ireland in the early nineties and, despite the fact that there was a bitter war going on all round me that took many lives, I experienced virtually no personal hostility at all from anyone. They didn’t lob accusations of bias around every time you asked a question either."

See from a Tweet (DH showed me on his PC) that Kevin Bridges documentary was heavily edited where all his friends were asked to say they were voting No. Kevin has said they're all actually Yes voters. Can the BBC stoop any lower!

I watched that the other night (repeated later on BBC1). To the best of my recollection most of his friends were going to vote Yes - one was an undecided, one no.

Ok. Folks. In a fairly protracted Facebook debate with some people who are pretty scary. The language is rather aggressive and bolshy - greed, monsters, evil.....You get the ideas. It is late and I am knackered. Anyone point to a succinct summary of No that is as unemotional as possible? Need to have the last word and then try to sleep. Thanks

Thehajduck's DS is adorable!

OOAML, I am so, so sorry. I hope your weekend is as peaceful as possible.

My contribution to todays thread: I was in Buchanan Street today, where the Yes campaign seem to have set up a band next to the Donald Dewar statue. A small group of BT campaigners walked past, holding Better Together and SNP NHS Lies posters. The BT campaigners kept going, utterly silent, just holding their posters. The Yes campaigners started hurling abuse at them. I was actually afraid something would kick off.

I know the vast majority of Yes campaigners do not do this. But when they do it so publicly, it does affect the entire campaign's image, and it's not pretty.

Thanks latte. I'm trying to stay calm

It all seems so unreal. Surely Salmond can't have wanted this?

To the person whose English neighbour's car was defaced. Please apologise from me. This isn't my Scotland or the generous, welcoming Scots I know. I am ashamed and hope we can welcome them back properly in the more settled future.

I have no idea who Kevin Bridges is. I've googled him and found the Herald tv review of the documentary which does not remotely sound as described by IrnBru's husband.

OneNight Not so TS. I wasn't joking when I said that I believed that massive work will be needed by all parties to get Scotland together whatever the result. In the event of a No vote, you're allowed a couple of days off and then you'll have to start again. Sorry 'bout that but everyone will be needed to shape the future.

I actually do think that some Yes voters have been deluded into believing they will be walking into a socialist nirvana, where they might not have to do any work if they don't feel like it, or maybe just something really nice that's fun to do, because Someone Else will pick up the tab.

And I really have no stomach for staying in a pseudo Communist state, where all my money will go on tax and every word and all my movements will be monitored for subversive tendencies.

I wish AS would condemn the bad behaviour. But he had consistently and studiously ignored it. So he therefore condones bullying, abuse and all the rest. What true Scot would want to live in such a Scotland? Its turning into an international basket case right in front of our eyes.

rose I think I always point out that nationalism is no friend of socialism. That we all want the same things for our country but that jumping off a cliff can't achieve that.

It is hard though. Does anyone think any undecideds are on FB?

Anyone point to a succinct summary of No that is as unemotional as possible?

How about Ewan Morrison?

I left the Yes camp and joined the No camp not because I like the UK or think the status quo works well as it is. No. I think things are as complicated and compromised as they always are and that we live in trying times. The Yes camp understand that and so have created an illusion of a free space in which everything you’ve ever wanted can come to pass – overnight. How can it? There are exactly the same political conflicts within the factions of Yes as there are within the UK. After a Yes vote the fight for control of Scotland will begin and that unity that seemed like a dream will be shattered into the different groups who agreed to silence themselves to achieve an illusion of an impossible unity – the kind of unity you find in faith, not in politics. What makes this worse than remaining in the UK is that Scotland will be fighting out its internal battles on a world stage after demonstrating it intends to run its new politics on an illusion of unity, a unity that breaks up even as it is observed

wakeupscotland.wordpress.com/2014/09/15/ewan-morrison-yes-why-i-joined-yes-and-why-i-changed-to-no/

Just back in. I accidentally opened up a different thread started by hadjuk, nice photo etc. I wondered why my ears were burning.

Ah weel, it was only so long before even MN became infected with the badness. Sad actually.

A couple more days and we will know one way or another.

Rose what are their arguments?

Rooners - it does indeed seem surreal. Someone said (on an earlier thread ) that they don't think Salmond did want this, that he was just basically stirring everyone up to get DevoMax or an equivalent and they thought he was probably not sleeping wondering how the actual fuck he was going to pull this off if there is a yes win. That gives me cold comfort :)

I'm not surprised people in Scotland are looking around going 'Where the fuck did THIS come from' :(

I saw that today in Glasgow, Santana. I can't say I'm shocked. Sadly.

I also got an ear bashing because apparently as I'm voting no I am wasting my vote.

Did they really say that browneyed?

This has probably been asked/ mentioned before but I just remembered that another service which will increase in price in the event of a Yes majority - or may not even be available in some areas - is the postal service. The more I think about it, the more worried I get.

I've just seen us described as BT Anonymous on the other thread

ICM poll tonight:

No 52%
Yes 48%

Roseforme I would point out that I wanted to help disadvantaged people in Glasgow AND Manchester AND Liverpool AND Newcastle by seeing the bigger picture and remaining in Union with them. We need cooperation not competition.

This of course will hold no appeal for the nationalist. You have to spot your target!

Yup, hi team
Don't worry, I'm out.

Why out, wild?

Anyone watching Gordon? He is doing very well IMHO

Where's the other thread?