Indyref 12 - keeping the ball rolling

[flippinada]

Hope everyone doesn't mind, I'm to keep the discussion going. As you were folks :)

I have enjoyed this thread and found it informative. But I think it's gone downhill today. of course feelings are high but as a wobbly no voter I feel very uncomfortable with comments about yes voters being thick, Nazis etc. If the no voters want to convince undecided lurkers this is not the way to do it.

And of course there has been bad behaviour on both sides. None of it is right.

I didn't see The Herald today as it was sold out. It's been the Indy paper of choice so far.

beatrice I kind of agree about this thread BUT I thought John Reid had it right when he said Salmond was fanning the flames with Team Scotland v Team Westminster as a message to his supporters.

beatrice

I agree. I don't think flinging insults about is helpful.

I tell you what though, my experience today was awful. The atmosphere was threatening. Really nasty.

Let's not pretend things like this aren't happening and everything is jolly nice and civilised - because from what I saw and heard, it most definitely isn't.

I've heard a (third hand) account of Yes campaigners at a Fresher's stall saying to no voters that a no counted as yes. And I've heard the rumour elsewhere too.

I've also heard "due to high expected turn out, yes will be voting on the 18th, no on the 19th" generally in a light hearted teasing way, but obviously there is a concern that some will believe it.

Everyone should vote. It's horrible that some people might have been tricked out of their chance for a say. It's not funny. Hopefully we can get the word out that they need to vote to be counted.

I didn't like Team Scotland Team Westminster either. But as I have lurked here I have read pretty credible posts by both yes and no canvassers about being abused and threatened. I don't see any reason to believe one side and not the other on this. And it's all wrong and very dispiriting. This thread has been great for the informative posts and super links. Can we get back to that?

Sky New's Joe Tidy had heard the allegations that 'No' campaigners were receiving abuse in Dundee so conducted an experiment... he put on a "No thanks" T-shirt.

Within 25 mins he was called disgusting and unScottish.

Joe Tidy on Twitter I missed his report as I don't watch Sky News. Did anyone see it?

Sorry Beatrice, I cross posted.

I haven't canvassed or campaigned for anyone btw. Am talking from the perspective of a bystander.

grovel thank you - had a listen to 5 love but must have missed the bit about Milliband being heckled.

Ahem. 5 live.

You know my views then beatricequimby if you've read the thread. I continue to believe that a resurgent Scotland is possible but only with massive hard work and the overwhelming majority of the country behind it. Others have profoundly held beliefs in the union but I have not closed the door in my mind to some sort of separation. Just not in this way, at this time and with these people in charge.

That's just me though.

Welcome officially to the thread anyway.

Beatrice I have suggested we stop the mud slinging. Tbh it doesn't help that the yes voters have all left the threads -before those comments started -which means the fear level has gone up rather than debating issues

OK. Onwards.

Are their any undecided voters around? Can you tell us what the issues are for you, what you are undecided about?

I made some disparaging comments about Jackie 'La' Bird on an earlier thread.
Not personal, just saying that I found her barracking of AD whilst interveiwing him last week really poor journalism
(and I did mention her taste for spangly frocks!)

Well, I've just watched her interview AD again on BBCScotland.
I think she is tipping over into a caricature of Rita Skeeter, actually, lots of faux-sympathetic head tilts when asking AD if he wasn't embarrassed and upset at having 'thrown away' a 20 point lead etc.
Reminded me of Rita Skeeter asking Harry Potter some skewed Qu's in exactly the same tone of voice

However, I have to say, she then gave our great leader Eck a reasonable questioning too, though with many many fewer patronising remarks.

I still don't want her on a swing-o-meter in a sequinned dress.
I'd prefer Kirsty Wark as a journalist, any day.
But, purely on tonight's showing, my opinion of La B has improved a bit.
I'm sure she (won't) be breathing a sigh of relief

Are there, ffs phone stop trying to spell for me!

grandtheftmanual

Brilliant post! Nails it absolutely!

Groupthink:

1. Illusion of invulnerability –Creates excessive optimism that encourages taking extreme risks.

1. Collective rationalization – Members discount warnings and do not reconsider their assumptions.

1. Belief in inherent morality – Members believe in the rightness of their cause and therefore ignore the ethical or moral consequences of their decisions.

1. Stereotyped views of out-groups – Negative views of “enemy” make effective responses to conflict seem unnecessary.

1. Direct pressure on dissenters – Members are under pressure not to express arguments against any of the group’s views.

1. Self-censorship – Doubts and deviations from the perceived group consensus are not expressed.

1. Illusion of unanimity – The majority view and judgments are assumed to be unanimous.

1. Self-appointed ‘mindguards’ – Members protect the group and the leader from information that is problematic or contradictory to the group’s cohesiveness, view, and/or decisions.

It's a perfect portrait of the Yes campaign

That Herald article is fascinating. Does anyone know if any of the leaders have reacted to it?

My husband is half Scottish and half English and I am seriously worried that he will be heartbroken on Thursday if Scotland votes Yes! He is worried that our little boy's British identity will be undermined. Thus he took this picture and is hoping that all of us who care will take a similar photo with a similar message to show Scotland that we care.
Not all of us get to vote, and it’s Scotland’s decision - and Scotland’s alone - to make. But all 60 million of us care what that decision is, and we have a few days now to show everyone in Scotland how much.

We shared this message on Facebook and Twitter and many have followed - here is our hope that those of us on Mumsnet who care about the British identity of our children will follow.

Choose your hashtag #LetsStayTogether #PleaseDontGo #NoThanks

Lovely pic thehajduk. Lots of us don't want to go.

Thanks for the picture hadjuk :)

That has raised a smile on what has felt like a thoroughly depressing day.

I haven't enjoyed this thread so much today. There has been too much bandying about the words stupid and thick.
For me the Herald has done a great job and I think on balance is right. I had composed a response to all the reasons why people might vote yes and these have been written in that editorial. They are saying we will give you one last chance , WM, and I think that's about right.
My own view is that I might have voted yes if I could vote at all, and as a qualified chartered accountant with ICAS, I believe I am not thick, and I do not follow Alex salmond (here's where I disagree with the herald, I do not rate him, myself) but I firmly believe Scotland can do it.
In my view, there may be a moment of reckoning, but I don't believe the oil will run out on Friday, with the banks and FS industries leaving on the same day in the event if a yes vote.
I don't think that the supermarket prices will treble by the weekend either. These innings take time and Scotland will have plenty of time and is eminently capable.

Lovely photo hadjuk - let's hope enough people see sense and vote NO.

See from a Tweet (DH showed me on his PC) that Kevin Bridges documentary was heavily edited where all his friends were asked to say they were voting No. Kevin has said they're all actually Yes voters. Can the BBC stoop any lower!