Indyref 12 - keeping the ball rolling

[flippinada]

Hope everyone doesn't mind, I'm to keep the discussion going. As you were folks :)

Bardabunga Chelsy you've lost me there! At which point would we be out of the ECHR?

Glad you're paying attention! That was badly written. An independent Scotland would be out of the ECHR the moment it became an independent state.

But with retrospective legislation, it wouldn't really matter. Presumably, it could apply as far back as the Scottish Parliament decreed by Scottish legislation. The ECHR currently protects against retrospective legislation.

[what I'm really pontificating about is whether a Scottish Government would try to trace money moved into English/foreign bank accounts before it became independent, e.g. if it was short of money and/or introduced capital controls].

(Not meaning to single her (Prettybird) out, but she's the only 'intelligent' 'yes' voter - quite possibly an oxymoron - that I can think of (there are plenty of non intelligent ones) - I hope some others come out of the woodwork).

Cheers, LLLL. Thanks for that sweeping statement about my lack of intelligence.... You may not agree with our views but it doesn't make us idiots.

I fail to see what a control-centric government in Edinburgh will do for somewhere like Wick.
ChelsyHandy: Who says it's going to be control-centric? There are many businesses, for example, in the Highlands and Islands who have already found the current Scottish Government far more responsive than Westminster ever was. I've personally been able to compare the response of my MSP and my MP in response to a Highland business-related concern of mine (non -indyref related) very recently - result: MSP - response within 4 hours; Westminster MP - still waiting for even an acknowledgement 2 weeks later...

Jeezo.

Latin

The £15bn is from GERS which is the figures produced by the Scottish Government. The £15bn itself is from quarterly figures which aren't as detailed, as the full annual version incorporating 2013/14 isn't out yet. It's the difference between the revenues raised in Scotland, and the money spent in/on Scotland. The expenses include some public debt expenditure of £4billion although this will not all be central government, some will be local. The revenues have lots of complex apportionment going on for different revenue sources e.g. corporation tax is apportioned to Scotland based on "where the economic activity takes place" which wouldn't happen post independence as it would be more likely to go to the country with the head office and most of the customers.

Here are the figures from 2012/13 which have more detail and were -£12billion roughly. First picture is the breakdown of revenue sources. Second is the breakdown of expenditure.

Art. 7 of the European Convention on Human Rights prohibits retrospective criminalisation of acts and omissions.

ie an act which wasn't criminal when it was done cannot be made criminal at a future date.

This of course is civil law. Presumably an independent Scotland could pass retrospective civil laws?

Ignore the typos. Jesus Christ. I am on my phone! Art. 7 ECHR of course refers to criminal law.

Can we please try to avoid stereotyping t'other side? I know it's getting close and feelings are running high and all...but we've had the Nazi/Selfish gits/raging capitalist/you're a communist/thick/ill educated fights before and they were a bit ugly.

sconequeen

The history of the SNP is littered with jobs for the boys. If they won, they would favour what they perceived to be their power base because it's what politicians whose jacket is on a shoogly peg always do.

(With the exception of Murdoch who does have a special position I grant you.)

Bardar it might be wrong to classify - but based on my circles, it is very easy to do so I am afraid.

I appreciate there are the idealogical "yes" voters. But after everything we have read in the last week, even they can't be so idealogical so as to commit a successful country to economic suicide? Because that just turns into stupidity.

A very small part of me will laugh on Friday if this does goes through. I'll be financial shafted for years, but I feel that everyones has done all they can, and if people really are that dumb, then god help them. They don't deserve to live in the peaceful, prosperous nation they have. They are the envy of the world and will be an absolute laughing stock.

Point taken SC.

*statistically" you are of course right and I shouldn't. But I am finding it impossible not to.

I now understand how the Nazis came to power. You take a megalomanic, a deep recession and a disenfranchised mass. You whip them up into a frenzy of nationalism. This is where we are.

I shall step off the thread now for the benefit of all.

Also from that Guardian article:

Last Friday Santander sent out a two-page fact sheet for all staff on Scottish independence, including scripted answers to commonly asked questions. Tellers are encouraged to tell panicked customers that Santander is already registered in London and that deposits are held centrally rather than at local branches; that the bank is registered with the regulator, the Financial Conduct Authority; and that it will remain part of the Financial Services Compensation Scheme, which guarantees deposits up to £85,000.

....

Last week The Lawyer revealed that an unnamed Scottish legal firm had shifted its cash out of Scottish banks for fear that a vote in favour of independence could lead to a run on them.

Should explain why I posted that:

1 - even banks not registered in Scotland see there could be a perception problem and need to reassure customers
2 - lawyers (who you would expect to be well-versed in the law!) are concerned about a run on Scottish banks

You don't need to step of Rooners, please don't think I meant that. I think this campaign has actually shown me how easily people can get swept up - I'm seeing people who I previously really respected sharing all and any crap with their "side" on it, even when it is total unadulterated nonsense and could be proven as such with two minutes on Google.

Roonerism
I now understand how the Nazis came to power. You take a megalomanic, a deep recession and a disenfranchised mass. You whip them up into a frenzy of nationalism. This is where we are.

Look up Godwin's Law please. And I've just reported your post. I'm prepared to put up with a lot but comparing the Yes campaign with the Nazis is just not on.

Scone that was your first post on this thread (I know you were on 11). I said I hoped others would come out of the woodwork, prettybird is the only name I could think of (because I 'know' her from another section of MN). Nothing to get your knickers in a twist over. I said it would be good to have some 'yes' voters in this discussion - is that so bad?

SC not patronising :) I am trying to sit on my hands when I have uncharitable thoughts. Honest. Saying 'An intelligent 'yes' voter (an oxymoron?)' was a bit naughty, sorry. But I just don't get it and I would like to hear from people voting 'yes' who I consider intelligent rather than 'fuck you WM' voters who will vote 'yes' without actually understanding any of it just to stick a finger up at either WM or The English as to why or how they still believe it's a good idea. I'd like to understand their viewpoint.

It's been an education in political manipulation which is why I took my eldest to an SNP rally! To reassure you, it was only a little keyed up and Scottish in a good restrained way Roonerspism.

Moving away from social media is a good idea and I think I'll follow now!

Rooners come back!!! Please.

Scone that is ridiculous, reporting Rooners post. She has compared how people become leaders of a nation, not their thoughts/policies.

Oh for goodness sake, SconeQueen could you please try not to censor people? Its really offensive, far more offensive than drawing lessons from history, the same reference having been made many, many times on these threads so far, by both Yes and No supporters.

If they won, they would favour what they perceived to be their power base ..

I'm not an SNP voter but I do not see any evidence of "jobs for the boys". I do, however, see a lot more evidence of consultation with local stakeholders on a wide variety of issues since the SNP came to power.

Regardless, however, this referendum is not about choosing the party to govern Scotland. It is about choosing whether Scotland can take control of its own affairs the same as other countries around the world rather than being dominated by its larger neighbour.

onenight

"If true, I doubt it would worry the SNP much MindReader. They believe that they would never do anything which would be unacceptable to anybody who is 'right thinking'. (I use that term advisedly.)"

I do think that there is a movement that way yes, ie 'anyone who is right thinking' is with the SNP. But I suppose you could argue that about BT?.

What I do find deeply worrying is this:
'we are all equal but some of us are more equal than others' attitude.
Ie the Right Thinking / loyal / 'proper' Scots will vote Yes.
It's quite Orwellian in the 1984 sense, imo.

I worry for the aftermath.

Scone I am seriously worried that in 10 years' time if yes happens we will be looking back and think how on earth did this happen?

Plenty of people were swept up in the euphoria of Blair being elected for example. At least with him or indeed Mrs Thatcher they can be unelected. This can't be undone.

With the news that polls are about as accurate as me predicting the outcome by reading tealeaves .. this becomes every more farcical.

There could be 80% in favour for all we know. It could be a landslide victory for Salmond. There's no precedent for a vote like this, people voting who would never normally vote, pre 18s and so on and such a high percentage of the electorate.

From outside looking in it really does seem that the Yesses far exceed the Nos. Not just in the reportage, but in reading forums and newspaper commentaries and every single online poll I've seen (as in people clicking to vote online) - has the Yesses miles out in front.

I know people are talking about shy and silent majorities - but if that's the case then they really are very shy and silent indeed. Where are they all? Which parts of Scotland are they in? What demographic are they or are they right across the board. What (anecdotal) evidence do you have of their existence?

People are predicting a close result based on the polling. Now we are being told the polls are most likely a complete crock of shite.

I hope to God I'm wrong but my gut is telling me that come Friday - Scotland is going to wake up an independent country.

I welcome anyone telling me I'm wrong. If you have reason to believe the Nos will prevail I would feel very reassured to hear it, from whatever source.

Mind that was from Animal Farm, which is why I mentioned it up-thread - it's exactly what this looks like.

LLLL
We both know what Rooners was implying. MNHQ can decide if it's acceptable or not.