Indyref 12 - keeping the ball rolling

[flippinada]

Hope everyone doesn't mind, I'm to keep the discussion going. As you were folks :)

Also - wasn't DevoMax not on the ballot because it would split the No vote, making Yes more likely?

Of course, BT has been out-manoeuvred at every stage by the Yes campaign anyway and a lot of people (not necessarily those on here!) are just taking the Yes messages at face value.

I heard last night that BT tried to book billboards etc for the last few days but found they had already been bought by Yes. Truly awful planning by BT. Their campaign has been a shambles.

spirited
AS was asked this morning about the NHS in relation to the leaked NHS memo. He managed to speak for 2 minutes, blame AD, blame WM, and still not answer the crux of the question.
Bluff, bluster with absolutely no actual answers.

(apols to any Mner who is part of the official BT campaign - but you must admit it's true!!)

Two things before I have to do some work:

I agree re. some Yes voters - my neighbour is Yes, but he's happily retired on a very nice private sterling pension, with his mortgage paid off.

And I will get flamed for saying this, but yes, the general ignorance of economic facts, of how the wider financial world works, has been a shock - surely there must be a case for making sure every child has a basic understanding of how our capitalist world works these days?

troels
That was on a previous thread as well, agree the No campaign has not nearly been as well organised as the Yes campaign.

Which in my opinion means the No voters are voting based on information and evidence found for themselves, rather than Yes voters who have been spoon fed propaganda from the beginning.

I agree Fontella even more chilling when I looked at the Guardian article linked above most of the commenters who expect a currency Union are also convinced that rUKs economy would be hurt most in a trade war and we'll be begging Scotland's forgiveness. It is beyond staggering.

WhatWould: But then the argument of some the left Yessers is "it's a new paradigm" and essentially we are voting yes to enable the future independent parliament to cock a snook to capitalism.

I got quite inspired myself listening to Irving Welsh yesterday.Then I shook myself and realised he won't be living in this new Scotland!

Member of the public on radio Scotland making an excellent case for staying in UK now.

Just to add, AS has invoked "the land of Adam Smith" several times in the last few days. Adam Smith was for unity with England!

Adam Smith warned about politicians who promise "plausible plans for reformation" that are mainly intended "for their own aggrandisement"
"By the Union with England, the middling and inferior ranks of people in Scotland gained a compleat deliverance from the power of aristocracy which had always oppressed them"

chocca

Listening to that. Did the separatist-businesswoman just deliberately misquote Bob Geldof there to make it sound like he was patronising women last night?

I have to say that if I had a horse in the race it would likely be a yes. However, Bob Geldof was inspirational, and may well have helped galvanise last minute support for the no's.
As someone with Irish blood running through my veins I was proud of him, and I'm not a fan generally.

Here we go.

This fella's wrong as well is he? Another one who doesn't know what he's talking about. Another one who is part of the conspiracy. Another one who has got it in for the poor Yes brigade.

Alan Greenspan
(Previously responsible for the most powerful economy on earth. Highly respected economist around the globe)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Greenspan

Alex Salmond's sums are implausible

Greenspan dismisses Alex Salmond's campaign promises as 'implausible' and saying here's no wayScotland could share the pound.

"There’s no conceivable, credible way the Bank of England is going to sit there as a lender of last resort to a new Scotland."

The former chairman of the US Federal Reserve accused the Yes campaign of drastically understating the economic damage a Yes vote in Thursday's referendum would cause.

Mr Greenspan, who is known for usually being circumspect, was scathing about Alex Salmond’s oil projections. He said: Their forecasts are so implausible they really should be dismissed out of hand

news.ca.msn.com/world/scotland-referendum-warnings-mount-about-economic-harm

Go on .. ignore away. Keep listening to Alex .. after all he's right and Greenspan and dozens like him (pretty much any economist other than those employed by the SNP) have got it wrong.

Guy on RScotland, casting doubt on the credentials of the business leaders who came out for No. Has the cheek in the same breath to then go on to praise Brian Soutar wasn't he shown to be extremely homophobic, and Jim McColl (residence Monaco)

Smear, smear, smear.

I realise this is a fast moving thread... but do yes voters have no concerns about the kind of nationalist government that currently runs Scotland? I've posted several links over the last few days about the routine arming of police and the exponential increase in stop and search, including of under 12s.

The SNP are the only incumbent government I know of that can use their own appalling record on tackling child poverty as a reason to support them further.

Please remember that their priority has always been independence and that allowing us to think that Holyrood is powerless against Westminster cuts is all part of the plan. If child poverty and food banks were such a priority for them, you'd think that they would have stopped hamstringing councils, or allocated more of their budget to tackling these areas instead of on policies to benefit those above the lowest incomes or not handed back tax raising powers... or spent less on tartan trousers for Alex Salmond and other "We're Scottish" vanity projects.

WildThong yes, Brian Soutar is homophobic. He ran done sorry if informal referendum (sorry, can't do a link, on phone) to do with the repeal of clause 28.

People have short memories, it seems.

It's like a teenager deciding they want to go and live in a flat, by themselves, away from Mum and Dad, no rules to follow - to have independence... whilst still having two years schooling to complete but saying they can afford it on the money from their paper run & that their parents can still do their washing and will still be allowed to act as a taxi. It really is.

I can see why the dense AS sheep can't see that (they don't want to) BUT Why why why can't the supposedly intelligent YES voters see that?

And no... for those that missed it... £250 Tartan Trousers for Alex is not a figure of speech.

What was the Geldof comment and subsequent misquote please, I can only find a snippet of his speech.

Argh, autocorrect. "Done sorry if" should be "some sort of" .

Another thing that is of concern to me which has largely gone under the radar is the recent move by the current SNP Govornment to appoint a 'State Guardian' for every child in Scotland under the age of 18. This can be anyone other than the parent. In theory it sounds good, to protect vunerable children, to ensure they don't get 'lost' between agencies with no communication but actually in reality it ends up being the Head Teacher in almost all cases.

If there is a dispute with the Head / Local Authority, as there often is when SEN are being disputed by school and fought for by parents what happens when the Head has the same Guardian rights as the parent?
A substantial number of church leaders and others came out against this, but it has become law.

I don't want an SNP appointed 'guardian' for my child, thanks very much.

I appreciate this is a very 'niche' thing to mention here but it is similar to the concerns spirited is mentioning above about the increased intrusion into the lives of folk by the current incumbents of the Scottish Parliament.

Anyone who's interested, Google Brian Soutar and Clause 28. Lots of info out there.

And yet, despite this man being a major supporter of the yes campaign LGBT campaigners are throwing their weight behind yes.

Celtic Bob G was great last night. He spoke with such passion.

Geldof - appealing to women in particular because more of the undecided are women?

But wild if there are more of the latter than the former then we are all screwed.

What's our worst case scenario? And yes, feel free to read this as scaremongering if you like, it's just an opinion on what could happen, not necessarily what will.

Come Yes on Friday, the pound will slump, investors will pull money out and the FTSE will take a massive hit. And who knows how long that will go on?

Growth will be slowed again, jobs will be lost and we will be back in recession before you know it - impacting the poorest most of all.

rUK politicians will then be under even more pressure to play hardball in negotiations. That won't work to iScotland's benefit, beyond enabling SNP to whinge about WM again. Any weaknesses in iScotland then will be attributed to those nasties in WM, completely ignoring the fact that the needs of 60m non-Scots also had to be protected during negotiations.

Shareholders will demand concrete answers from the financial institutions and other businesses who have expressed concerns, which in turn will force them to implement their relocation plans. So jobs and tax money will move out of iScotland, further exacerbating any turbulence.

There will be further threats of nationalisation etc to try and stem the flow, which will encourage even more businesses to distance their Scottish operations/leave iScotland to minimise the risk.

And that will leave iScotland with fewer jobs, no place in the EU, likely no EU subsidies for agriculture etc - as it has been repeated time and again it's likely to take 5 years for entry.

When people realise they have been sold a pup there will be civil unrest, but if iScotland is lucky, SNP will manage to turn that into anti-English/WM sentiment and it will mainly be English people/ no voters/ rUK businesses that will be hit rather than turning the nation completely in on itself. Still, it won't be pleasant for the people who are "hit", who are likely to feel they have no choice but to move.

And then? Well, then Salmond's rich buddies will be invited in to "save the day" - in reality scoop up national resources at a cheap price (think Russia oligarcs) and the poorest will be well and truly screwed.

Along the same timeline, rUK will be badly hit. rUK will have less power and influence in Europe and in other global organisations. For all the UK has made some poor decisions in terms of international policy, it also provides an important voice for democracy and human rights - so that would be a loss. The economy will be rocky, but over time the migration of jobs from iScotland will help to settle the boat.

It won't be pretty for quite a long time on either side of the border, that's for sure - IMHO.

Alex Salmond is the pied piper of Holyrood, leading the innocents of Yes away into financial disaster.