Indyref 12 - keeping the ball rolling

[flippinada]

Hope everyone doesn't mind, I'm to keep the discussion going. As you were folks :)

And you are on here talking about the colour of your badges .....

I utterly, utterly despair

I appreciate all of that statistically, all I'm saying is why would anyone believe these promises of Cameron etc ref more powers as they are more than likely just pie in the sky. Also they've said no to an English parliament- so not likely.
Wwfd -just wondering what we'd loses as a result.
Nothing is free you know.
The general election next year is going to be very interesting on the back of a no vote.

My husband has been told to "F**k off back home" recently because he was not a Yes supporter. He has also experienced anti-English verbal abuse before.

I appreciate it is just a small section who are fervently anti-English . But I think there's also the general atmosphere of feeling unwelcome with the current campaign. When elected politicians are told they shouldn't be here and the Scottishness of people like Jim Murphy and Alistair Darling are questioned because they support a No vote and the Yes supporters wrap themselves in the saltire as if Being Scottish = Voting Yes. When en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siol_nan_Gaidheal Siol nan Gaidheal - Seed of the Gaels]] has been turning up at local events with official Yes signage. When online (not here) (and sometimes in person) people who question some of the detail around independence are called traitors, quislings. When there is talk of Westminster rule and subjugation ...

It feels unfriendly to a Scottish 'no' voter, let alone an English one. Even if the nationalism is supposed to be civic rather than ethnic, it seems to other those who don't support it.

I don't think we have the resources to move - we're council tenants with a single averagey wage), let alone at short notice, and I do like living here. But DH is unhappy and I suspect that he will be keeping an eye out for jobs elsewhere. I don't want to let the bullies win.

Despair away fontella, I was responding to a post about the no camp feeling the saltire had been hijacked. Which I think is a pity.

Sorry fontella, I'm being lied to by nobody.
I'm just saying the opposite to you, that doesn't make me stupid. Also I can't vote so just saying my piece as a scot in England. I still have that right.
I think the no voters underestimate the impact this has had on the rest of the uk and it's ramifications going into a general election.

I'm not sure that 'Hell would freeze over before etc' Fontella but I think that what many people in favour of separation need to realise is that whatever was done in the event of a Yes vote in a few days time would be done to further the advantage of the rest of the UK and not any sScotland. They would not be negotiations between friends.

Yes - that probably means that any sScotland would be screwed though. It would be realpolitik and not the tea and buns that many people imagine.

Also what other flag would the yes campaign use ?

Just read the Ewan Morrison article posted by MrsCurly at 21:52 yesterday.

Yes to the no debate allowed and trotskyite style.
It's hard to discuss this with the leftish/idealistic Yessers. (I just smile and say morning to my SNP neighbours - never going to change their beliefs.)

I watched a mini SNP rally yesterday and the atmosphere wasn't all that. No rainbow coalition were there though.

Quick look at the Better Together page shows that they do also use the Saltire, just without the No overlaid.

Interestingly, I have the same amount of FB friends liking the BT page as the YS page. So a 50/50 split of people who bother to like these pages.

Civic nationalism is hogwash in my opinion.

That's been my take home message from this event.

I disagree on that Bardar but I do think that nationalism of any description is a very dangerous substance. It can so easily be turned to hatred.

I think my experience is coloured by living in an SNP heartland.

I think the no voters underestimate the impact this has had on the rest of the uk and it's ramifications going into a general election.

I think the complete opposite. The cost of paying for an iScotland would have bigger ramifications. The cost alone would have many ramifications.

IMHO, just watching the campaign, it looks like iScotland is going to be more Animal Farm than land of milk and honey.

Our family still in Scotland are likely to move if it's Yes as they think Salmond and the SNP will do all they can to hold on to power and they will make the Tories look positively left wing in terms of policy - that's even before you get to the massive economic argument against Yes....

I feel the other Yessers are being led into a bad future. And having looked at the economic predictions I think it will be far worse for the POOREST. Meanwhile my neighbours will still be comfortable but in their prize of an independently run nation.

I don't get it because I'd put people before nationhood tbh.

I can't believe that with two days to go the currency is still be argued over. Scotland needs to wake up fast and realise that they hold no cards. If Scotland refuses to take the debt share then it is not just it's credit rating that will be trashed, rUK could also refuse to hand over other assets such as BoE reserves, Planes/Naval ships etc in lieu. 70% of Scotland's trade is with rUK and crippling taxes could be placed on Scottish goods, it would be an economic massacre.

It would probably be extremely right wing indeed because that's the way the SNP are already going if you scratch the surface of their utterances.

I fear for the environment here if any SNP government were to get into power on the back of a Yes vote in a few days. Thinking about next week, I shall probably be joining the local green party in any case because it seems to me that green issues are less in the SNP's minds than immediate political advantage so that whatever the vote they have been pushed way down the political agenda.

Someone up thread was worried about the NHS. It's a Yes vote that makes me worry for the NHS.

When talking about the NHS on tv debates, the yes side frequently conflate two separate issues. Public money paying the private sector for services (not desirable in my view) which is happening in both England on a larger scale and Scotland - on a smaller scale but rising a lot in the last couple of years which is not a risk to the NHS being free at the point of use and generally increases public spending and therefore the block grant AND they'll quietly mention charging - to justify them saying the union is a risk to the Scottish NHS.

Routine charging is not a mainstream policy of any major political party. (there has been some discussion of whether drunks should be charged for taking up space in A&E on a fri/sat night) The culture in the UK is very much that the NHS should be free at the point of use. This is not a credible threat the NHS budget. But Yes campaigners are going around stating as fact that people will have to pay a certain amount for visiting their GP or A&E in the event of a No vote. And they accuse 'No' of scaremongering.

In contrast, many independent countries in Europe, including Ireland, charge at the point of use. Sometimes a small amount, sometimes a larger amount that is then claimed back partially. An newly iScotland would be under severe economic pressure (as highlighted by Statistically Challenge) that is the real danger to the NHS.

Gordon Brown on the NHS

The arrogance of the Yes campaign when they discuss future relations with rUK:

"We are not goin' anywhere guys!" to any cultural arguments.

"We will be cooperative neighbours working for our mutual interests" on the economic and political issues.

Aye right.

I agree that a yes vote is going to hit the poorest and most vulnerable hardest.

I think a sizeable number yes folk are comfortably off and will be able to absorb the inevitable cuts/increase in living costs (that's once the trifling matter of currency has been resolved).

What about the people who can't absorb the costs. Don't they matter?

Personally more powers aren't influencing my decision. I really hope we get them as I think if it is a no it will help to calm things down. I think they've gone too far to deliver nothing, but if they don't I'll be campaigning with the rest of you. But my decision is based on no extra powers.

I didn't hear it but Salmond was on the radio this morning and when asked whether an independent Scotland would have to pay more to borrow money, the first minister replies:

"No, you have to have sustainable level of borrowing and debt. As far as the cost is concerned, we'll be borrowing at Sterling rates."

That is glib even for him.

I enjoyed the Ewan Morrison article linked below. Very interesting

I can't believe that with two days to go the currency is still be argued over.

Charlie - they aren't even arguing. They have nothing to argue with. Read the responses - here and elsewhere. It's 'I'm not being lied to' and 'I wouldn't believe Cameron either' and 'it's our pound too' COMPLETELY IGNORING THE ECONOMICS. COMPLETELY IGNORING WHAT IS STARING THEM IN THE FACE. COMPLETELY IGNORING WHAT EVERYONE ELSE IS TELLING THEM APART FROM SALMOND. Everyone else is lying, part of a conspiracy, if Alex says it will be ok, it will be ok. If Alex says he's going to get them this, then those evil WM politicians are going to capitulate - then they will.

It's bone chilling this level of ignorance. Terrifying. These are the people that hold Scotland's future in the balance. Some grandiose sense of their over importance, some blithe acceptance, that somehow the demands of 5.2 million people are going to ride roughshod over what is best for the remaining nearly 60 million .. is beyond anything I can comprehend. That everyone else is wrong and they - this select few - are right.

Yes, I think WM will have to deliver something to keep the Yes and no side happy, otherwise they face a neverendum of one kind or another - and I can't see them wanting a repeat of this campaign any time soon.