Indyref 11. The home of good manners

[grovel]

!0,000 and counting.

More powers would have been great, not an option now.

Off to help with the BT campaigning now - buoyed up by the MN indy threads.

And half want out.

And right there is your problem. Unless you propose a totalitarian state which crushes dissent you need a proper mandate from the people to make such a wholesale change work. I'm talking about a genuine mandate and not the 50% plus one vote which is set legally.

The current Yes campaign have not done the real work on this.

Lovley of course it's still an option. WM can hardly go back on what they've promised this last week.

Despite the great atmosphere and the positivity that lies with the Yes campaign I don't think we're going to get it.

That makes me feel like shit. We'll be scared and conned into staying in a union that I don't want. I'll be forced to live in a country that has confirmed st the polls that has no confidence in itself.

North Britain. No more powers. A government that could be withdrawn at any time. Controlled by a parliament so disconnected from the people it's set up to serve that they claim £30 breakfasts whilst telling us that the scroungers are ruining our country.

And I'll be stuck in that union without a hope in hell of ever getting heard.

Isn't that a pip?

well, of course I would say this but now I think you're being unrealistic.

They were panicked plans put together when they realised we were closing in on a Yes vote. They are under no obligation to deliver any of them. Be under no illusions.

You seem to think that people who voting No have no confidence in Scotland. The No voters think differently.

well then, if after a No vote absolutely nothing changes, then all 4m-odd Scottish voters can march on Downing St and I will hold the other end of a banner with you on that.

Seriously, I cannot see how they could possibly leave everything as it is after the last month. But at least we will still be in a wealthy and stable economy and have the political will to hold them to account.

I'll take the risk of not getting more devolution over the risks associated with independence any day of the week.

Rita

You said among other things

And I'll be stuck in that union without a hope in hell of ever getting heard.

Isn't that a pip?

I noted in an earlier post

although I do know that the divisions created by this referendum have created problems for separatist thought that will probably last for generations and will require a huge amount of work to overcome.

It is well known on this thread I think that I'm a former Donald Dewar supporter and Donald would have been wincing at all of this because of the effect on his country and his people. He believed passionately in more power to the Scots but he had no time for the SNP who if I recall he called illusionists. This is not the way he would have done things and whatever the vote outcome so much work will need to be done in this country to bring people together again that I feel almost faint thinking about it.

Almost. Not entirely.

Either way people will need to unite for the sake of Scotland whether it's a yes or a no vote.

I don't doubt no voters hold this country as dear as I do. It's just the lack of confidence I see and don't understand.

And look at the dates they set on this timetable. St Andrew's night, more detail on burns night.

It's insulting. They seem to think a token not to shortbread tin nationalism, which is so far away from what this is about, will pacify us.

And it seems to have worked.

I'm petrified.

OneNight I think I would always see 'Scotland, UK' as my country, my husband is English so we feel a very British family. So I'm a definate No rather than a deferred yes (cheers for completely disrespecting my opinion Alex Salmond )

However I've also been very disappointed with the 'plans' for independence. I thought... when we got closer to the referendum that some of the criticisms of the White Paper would have been addressed, that there would have been more concrete plans, that they could have been honest. The most basic business plan would be honest about the risks and outline how they can be minimised (and not just by refusing to talk about them) and what challenges we'll need to meet.

I could understand and feel more confident about the future in an iScotland, if they were being straight with people about what they are signing up for rather than trying to pull the wool over people's eyes and crying "Scaremongering" whenever anyone asks a legitimate question about their plans... the wizard resolutely hides behind the curtain and shouts.

Scottish folk are have a reputation for being canny, and I think the relentless "don't look before you leap, you're just scaremongering" gets people's backs up because the Yes/SNP vision/plans sound too good to be true.

I would probably still vote no, but I'd be more sympathetic to a yes vote if they were honest and realistic.

I agree with Carol Craig's article WRT optimism being the wrong strategy when the consequences of failure are so catastrophic.

Scotland does not have enough people to make it viable, it will struggle to get enough people to make it viable, particularly in the face of increased competition from the EU and a drain of people and money south, and the Yes campaign has no plan at all to remove the dependency that you say exists through a currency union.

No. An independent Scotland would not work.

but it's not really a straightforward lack of confidence - it's looking at the risks and deciding that, on balance, they're too high. So it's not being irrationally afraid or timid, it's being realistic and wanting to reach a settlement that makes more than 50% of the electorate happy.

Wolf

You have just summed up what I wanted to say, and much better than I could have done.

David Cameron stated, without leaving any room for doubt, that he would not enter negotiations with Scotland in any way before the referendum.

So short of best laid plans what we're the SG meant to do?

This has been a calculated divide and conquer mission, leaving the SG on the back foot from the word go. So much could have been clarified and laid to rest before now. But there's been a stake driven through this country by Cameron who was smug enough to think it was an issue he was never going to have to deal with.

I understand that some Scots believe and always have done that their country is Scotland. not Scotland, UK. I accept that is a legitimate reason to vote Yes. But I don't think that is what the majority of Scots agree. They aren't up for independence at any cost. I think its wrong to mislead them that nothing they like will change and promising them that everything they dislike will change, chopping and changing the image of independence depending on who they are talking to.

Cameron would not get my vote that's true. However why should he enter into actual negotiations prior to a known outcome? Like Alex Salmond, he's a politician and he has responsibility (however he chooses to exercise it) for more than just the Scots.

What has Alex Salmond planned to negotiate with by the way?

The whole thing has been shambolic really. A refesual to negotiate or at least sit round the same table and have the conversations instead of this ridiculous tit for tat rolicking we've been subjected to fro all sides. The fact it took Westminster politicians up to last week to realise something was afoot and pit together these promises for what is essentially the devo max that salmond wanted on the polling paper in the first place.

Westminster ignored this, assumed it would fizzle out into a no vote. I don't want to be left in a union that thinks so little of is, but that's what I'm being condemned to.

lovley if it is no, then we should feel positive that this referendum has brought about a movement in peoples attitude to politics. All of those who didn't get out and vote in 2010 and 2011 because they were fed up with politics are sure to be engaged now.

As I posted previously what has Alex Salmond planned to negotiate with? In your understanding of course.

That's what I'll be holding onto if there's a no vote and hope to goodness that everyone gets back out in May to deliver a kicking to the current government.

But vote for who? The Labour party that are now practically indistinguishable from the conservatives?

We don't have a lot of hope really.

That's what is depressing me. A future stuck in a union with the same.bank of grey, wet and useless men in suits to choose from. But in reality there's no point in choosing any of them. My vote is worthless.

What do you mean? He's negotiating the exit of Scotland from the union it has paid into for the last 300 years. He doesn't have to have any aces u his sleeve. It's not a battle ground.