Indyref 11. The home of good manners

[grovel]

!0,000 and counting.

TeamScotland because we love Scotland, DH and DCs are Scottish, we would never choose to leave, we didn't for one minute imagine that half or more of the population would buy into Salmond's madness, or be hoodwinked into delivering whatever it is he wants on a plate, that we would feel unwelcome in our own country, that Scotland should be so divided that we don't dare walk down some areas with a No sticker, or dare reveal our political position with a car bumper sticker.

That's why we didn't 'get our ducks in a row' - we are human and fallible and beleive that most people are sensible and ultimately want the best for Scotland.

Rooner It's like a bad plot from a horror film.

Yes. You can tell from the responses from the Yes type of voters on here how people like us would be treated. With utter contempt. I've worked pretty hard all my life, didn't have any advantages over anyone else (I have even worked a couple of hours today as I do most weekends), but most of my money is in my home. DH and I do have pensions and would have to see how we could protect them in the event of independence as well.

I guess you could probably join "The Party" and work your way up that way in the brave new world...I wonder if they would have a method of checking who voted for who. Any glance at my FB page would disbar me from that I guess.

Settled with a glass of wine to enjoy this thread :)

What I'm so surprised about is that half the country is happy to vote yes with no certainty on anything.

Oh yes. This is something that astonishes me on a regular basis.

The people I have spoken to though, are all voting no and quite horrified at the thought of leaving. Just because it's SNP does not mean people will automatically vote yes. I think I've only spoken to one Yes voter over the last month. But also mainly people keep quiet about who they are voting for and why. I am quite happy to be vocal on an internet forum but I don't feel I want to discuss it at work, for example. Don't know why. Feels rude somehow? And I do feel intimidated by the Yes stuff. It also irritates me being canvassed by any party!

Just working on my list of reasons for staying :)

NCforAye

Yes, I am in England. I don't know how exactly increased devolution or Uk federalism would be worked out, and I think there could be a lot of practical stumbling blocks, eg. would we have a separate English and Uk parliament, or just divide sittings depending on what issues are being voted on, or eg. would it create difficulties in decisions on tax and spending between devolved areas like health/education and areas like foreign policy. I think that could be overcome though, so I'm not against it. I would much prefer it to complete separation, because we wouldn't have the (probable) issue of separate currencies, or of reducing the international influence of both countries.

Also I will cry if you leave us . But don't worry about us . I just really love Scotland and I am proud to be in a union with Scotland. I'd want the governments to do whatever it took to work out how to keep that union going no matter what kinds of devolution/federalist approach was needed, and to respond to the desires of the Scottish people.

I don't know about the shock to the political system created by a yes vote, as by that point Scotland wouldn't benefit from any resulting reform in Westminster, and I don't think they would bother with any for the rest of us. I share your frustration with the way things are and if I could separate myself from many of the current procedures and policies I would. I just hope we can try to create change together, rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater for want of a better phrase.

TeamScotland A fine example of nationalist "me first" mentality.

Nicola could say she was a No and I still couldn't bear to listen to her. Sorry petty and irrelevant but she sets my teeth on edge.

I agree. As an 'outsider' in Scottish terms, I know little about her, but I have to be honest and say from what I have seen of her ... regardless of her political argument she would persuade me of nothing. Everything is delivered with a sort of fixed supercilious smile on her face as if she is in on some private joke or knows something that the rest of us don't. Petty and irrelevant maybe but these things, rightly or wrongly do play a part in our perceptions.

Statistically The polls have turned pretty dramatically in the last few months. Chelsy will no doubt have weighed up severity of scenario vs probability of occurring and thought it wasn't that likely. By the time the polls turned doing much about it would have been tricky in the short time frame.

Thanks, but I did weigh it up and I really did want to get out before. But everything was put on hold for reasons outwith my control after DH's accident. I also took into account the way Scotland was heading and the increasingly controlling nature of the Scottish Government and its failure to tackle the City of Edinburgh Council's various scandals.

I didn't want to be proven right. What we are going through right now is too much already. I am a very careful planner - I resent being put in this situation.

Why do you some people think that they won't be welcome? Should I be feeling that if we get a no? That half my country people have resigned me to a life I don't want?

I could feel that. But I won't. I might have a mope and a moan, I'll dust myself down and get set about seeing how i make the most of the shit I've been left with. And what I can do to make a difference.

Just wanted to add that I feel like looking at what is going on in the world today, it seems that multi-state nations could engender more overall tolerance within the nation as a whole, rather than separate areas and groups/ethnicities being up in arms or feeling their values are incompatible.

TeamScotland - sorry, compassion doesn't work like that. You either have it or you don't. Luckily for you, if it's a No, I think most of us on this thread will want to work with everyone in Scotland to address the hundreds of issues that have been raised during this debate, to acknowledge that hundreds of thousands of people feel disenfranchised and powerless to change their circumstances. There are many areas of society that need change, and I've said many times upthread that I would love Scotland to be fairer - but a stable economy is the essential thing we need to create that society, and doing this, tearing the UK apart by such a tiny majority, with all the recrimination that will follow from rUK, is completely the wrong way to go about it.

Why if Yes wins would they refuse the vote to 16-17 year old?

Some what surprisingly a mock election in my nephew's school in Aberdeenshire was a firm No.

Just on polling cards - in the Netherlands you have to bring some form of ID with you to prove you are the person on the card. Driving licence or passport. DH was shocked we just carried along the polling card and that was enough.

If it's any comfort I think the latest breakdown of polls that I saw had the 16-17 bracket as more pro-No than Yes - so it may bite AS in the bum

That's not the impression I've had. The big Hydro debate on TV with the young people, the other one in Eastwood High etc, all looked very pro yes to me.
Unfortunately

All of the school referendums I've heard of have been Nos, actually, although I have begun to see more Yes badges on teenagers.

I'm hopeless at guessing what age they are, but I'd say they're probably too young to vote.

Ah fair enough Chelsy. Personally I did similar calcs but didn't think it was likely enough to outweigh the problems associated with moving. Plus I don't want to! Plus DHs job isn't easily transferrable, it would be a starting again situation for him. I hope your DH is doing better.

temporaryusername

I find it heartening to discover how much I have in common with a lot of No voters and pro-No people in the rest of the UK. The big difference for me is that I genuinely see Scotland as a nation (and deserving of all the rights and responsibilities that brings), and I also think independence can achieve improvement to the current ingrained system better and quicker (for both Scotland and the rest of the UK) than any other efforts. But, if a No vote comes back on Thursday, I will have a little cry of my own, then dust myself off and try to work towards other ways of improving things, collaborating with everyone else who wants to see change, whether they voted Yes or No in the referendum. I think it will be important for people on both sides to work together, and be welcoming of each other if possible, whatever the outcome.

TeamScotland if it is a NO vote, how will your life change from how it is today?

I think you are all being drama queens.

Rita you know perfectly well that if it is a no this will be resurrected. If it is a yes my country has been divided with virtually no hope of the damage being undone.

Is there a perception then that 16 and 17 year olds are somehow more likely to commit electoral fraud than older voters? How exactly does that come about?

FWIW my teenagers are honest to a fault. The 16 year old would never even consider voting twice. The 19 year old has ended up on 2 registers as he decided over the summer he'd vote in his student place of residence. He will not vote here.

To the Yes voters debating compassion - there is a big difference in waking up and things remain the same, and waking up knowing you will be in a different country, and all that brings with it, in a rapidly approaching future. The two cannot be compared.

There's a difference Rita. A Yes vote is irrevocable while a No vote probably won't be. And people will know that.

I think you are all being drama queens. In a Yes world I will have no job. I am the only earner. Fancy rephrasing that for me and tens of thousands of others who will be affected?

TeamScotland OK, so you just dismiss our concerns? Our feelings about this vote aren't valid? is that it? It's sounding suspiciously misogynist to dismiss all these women as 'drama queens' to me.

This is what a No
Vote is like. You are voting for the status quo.

(And I love the Quo)