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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Indyref 10. The Marathon Continues..

999 replies

WildThong · 13/09/2014 11:18

All welcome

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OneNight · 14/09/2014 12:38

I suspect that despite being a close buddy of Alex Salmond Murdoch didn't get the deal he was looking for. I seem to remember talk that he was considering moving Sky to Scotland in exchange for a reduction in Corporation Tax although I can't immediately recall the source of that memory.

Or possibly it was realised that his endorsement wouldn't necessarily be a good thing because too many people remember Wapping and Gotcha.

Whatever the truth of it he seems to be looking to bloody Westminster's nose and to be rather of the view now that the offered DevoMax equivalent might do just that thing without commercial risk to his concerns.

livingzuid · 14/09/2014 12:39

Salmond saying he's in negotiations already with the EU. I'm not sure what to make of this, more bs? Just a phone call? How genuine is it?

m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-eu-negotiations-under-way-1-3541269

WildThong · 14/09/2014 12:41

He can't be actually negotiating as there hasn't been a vote yet. I call BS.

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Chairthing · 14/09/2014 12:45

Of course he can be negotiating. You don't have to wait for a definitive to test the water. I suspect negotiations have been going on in a number of areas for some time on a lot of things.

Fontella · 14/09/2014 12:46

First of all Scotland has never been colonised so let's get rid of that old turkey. Wales yes, Ireland yes, but not Scotland. I'm sure you all know the history on this thread, but it's perhaps worth repeating for anyone chancing by this goes right back to Elizabeth I remaining childless and unmarried and the invitation to James VI of Scotland taking the throne of England upon her death and the 'joining' of he two kingdoms in 1603 - The Union of Crowns. A century later after the execution of a King, Civil Wars and the restoration of the monarchy - the two parliaments of Scotland and England united to form The Union of Parliaments under Queen Anne in 1707. Yes, there was dissent and reluctance of the part of many Scots and yes, there was no doubt bribery and arm beinding involved, but nevertheless the Union happened.

Now half of the Scottish population it seems, want to bring the Union to an end, and I understand that - as a Welsh speaking Welsh woman whose family in Wales go back generations. When it comes to my Welshness, it comes first and foremost over my Britishness, and I have and perhaps would again, vote Plaid - but my decision for doing so would not be based on any desire for Welsh 'independence' from the UK (but that's an entirely different thread), but because the Plaid candidate was the best candidate and most suited to deal with local issues and represent us at a national (as in Welsh Assembly) and British (as in Westminster) level.

If the Scots want to go it alone then they should. But it is a decision that should be based on facts rather than the utopian nonsense that is currently being spouted. I have yet to read one sensible, factual, coherent argument from a single separatist politician or supporter. It is all based on nationalist pride, a desire to get out from under the perceived yoke of Westminster oppression, a desire to 'govern ourselves' and yes, a desire to stick one up to the English - and anyone who denies the latter is deluding themselves. There is a gloating triumphalism from some quarters of the separatist movement that makes it clear what the underlying motivation for Scottish secession from the Union really is for a significant proportion of those voting 'yes’.

There seems to be little thought or concern or caution regarding the actual practicalities of a split. The seismic effect that this will have, not just on Scotland itself, but on the whole of the UK who have had no say, but have had to stand by and watch the future of all of us on this island of Britain (and outlying) being held in the balance by Scottish schoolchildren and recent arrivals to Scotland, some of whom it would seem have no concept or understanding of British history. The tearing down and ripping apart of virtually every single 'British' institution and the whole foundation on which our constitution is based, the effects of which will be felt by everyone, and will last for years. Lots of Saltire waving and smug, smiling politicians who promise everything and gloss over the specifics with platitudes of 'it will all be wonderful' and denouncing everything that doesn't chime with their promise of this utopian Scotland as 'scaremongering' and 'a Westminster conspiracy'.

What astounds me even further is that this small country having freed itself from the yoke of Union with the rest of the UK, is going to go cap in hand to the European Union - a federalist institution that despises nationalism, that actively seeks to erode the nation state, that will eat Scotland for breakfast. All this 'desire to govern ourselves' will all fall by the wayside, when the diktats start coming in from Brussels as they will, because the conditions that Scotland will have to agree to to even get themselves into the EU will be strident - Spain and others with separatist issues of their own to contend with will make absolutely sure of that. A small country like a newly independent Scotland will have no leverage, no muscle - Salmond's demands for this, and that, his pronouncements about what Scotland will and won't take from the UK when it departs, will not be replicated when he signs Scotland up to that larger Union. The demands and conditions of entry will be dictated by others.

And let's get to England. At the moment it all seems very much as if the Scots are leaving England behind and the chickens are coming home to roost for the old colonial power (of which Scotland was very much a part of course - something that seems to be conveniently overlooked). The poor old hapless English, who no-one loves and no-one wants, living on past glories and watching the UK shrink and diminish around them.

Well jolly olde England is still a going concern and an extremely viable one at that. Larger geographically than its breakaway neighbour, with more than 10 times the population, with the financial capital of the world at its centre. There are many English people who are fast reaching the conclusion that perhaps its time for England to start flexing its muscles and start thinking about 'England' and the remainder of the UK, what is best for it and that won't involve giving Salmond and the Scots everything they seem to think they are going to take with them, on a plate.

The pound for starters. It has been made clear repeatedly from numerous sources that there will be no currency union, that such a union is incompatible with sovereignty and it is simply not an option. This is blithely ignored - Nicola Sturgeon's intelligent, informed and considered response when challenged on that very point 'It's our pound too'.

Er no Nicola its not. It's the British pound and the lender of last resort is the Bank of England - the clue is in the name. The governor of that institution has made it clear that a currency union is 'impossible'. His words - simply ignored by Scottish politicians. You cannot share a currency successfully without fiscal integration - which requires political union of some kind - something the Scots do not want. They want total independence, but still have currency union? It's ludicrous - but it seems as if a fair proportion of those voting yes are oblivious to the consequences of what they are doing.

Then there are the 'billions of barrels of oil' that apparently exist. Disputed by various independent experts as a vast over-estimation, Sturgeon again, when challenged , simply retorts that she is right and they are wrong. That's it. End of discussion. They are 'scare-mongering' Ignore them. This is the level of the debate and the premise on which people are voting for Scottish independence. The assurances of separatist politicians that they are right, everyone else is wrong, the British Government will cave in to every Scottish demand and hand over everything they perceive to be theirs for the taking, and if they don't, we'll just default on our debt. It's like playground politics and the fact than people are basing their futures and the futures of their children on the platitudes and pronouncements of these people is beyond my comprehension.

Sadly however, my own view is that as hard as it is for all of us, it is time for Scotland to go, and it is better to do it now than keep kicking the can down the road so future generations have to live with this ever present resentment and uncertainty.

But if they think their neighbour is simply going to roll over, cave in and give them everything they want is nothing short of delusional, no matter how much they shout and scream about oppression and Westminster conspiracies and Eton toffs. It's gone way beyond all that now and there are nearly 60 million people south of the border who are starting to question how such a small percentage of the population of the UK are allowed to wreak such havoc on the rest of us. Attitudes are hardening, and there will be a consolidation of opinion as events unfold over the coming days, weeks and years that will not be favourable to Scottish demands.

My sympathies lie with the 50% or so of the Scottish population who don't want this. I cannot imagine what it must be like to be in your shoes at the present time. The rest of the UK will be fine I have no doubt about that, but for the breakaway Scotland I fear the future will be nowhere near as rosy as some of those voting ‘yes’ seem to imagine it might be.

prettybird · 14/09/2014 12:47

A twibbon is the "Yes" or "No" sticker that some people have put on to their facebook or twitter profile pictures.

I'm not trying to paint the Yes Campaign as whiter than white: I can only speak about my personal experiences. I have already said that I must like in a "naice" bubble maybe it's just the friends I choose (NB: I didn't "choose" them because they were Yes or No - they're just my friends)

The nastiest stuff I personally have witnessed is on these threads where people have said that voting one way or the other morally wrong/not caring for their children/uneducated/selfish - take your pick Hmm

But in general the conversation has been very respectful.

bideyinn · 14/09/2014 12:47

I've not posted on these threads before but I have been reading them. Tbh the I'm finding it hard to relate to the views and experiences described here as they are so different from my own.
I was in Glasgow City centre yesterday. It was amazing, thousands and thousands of people who support YES from all walks of life, milling around, talking etc. it was very friendly and warm, quite emotional actually. Didn't see many no supporters. Why wasn't this reported by the BBC?

StatisticallyChallenged · 14/09/2014 12:48

I'm sure he's had a conversation with someone in those countries...

OneNight · 14/09/2014 12:48

Oh it could be perfectly genuine livingzuid. It might only mean though that he's placed a few phone calls to a few states which the leaders of those states would possibly accept for 5 minutes. It's just words at the moment.

I liked his statement that he would be considering ways on Friday (if he won) to take action and to bring the country together. I just wish that he had put something substantive on the table now.

EarthWindFire · 14/09/2014 12:54

Didn't see many no supporters.

No supporters aren't necessarily wondering around with arrows above their head. No one I know who is voting no has advertised the fact in any way whatsoever.

WildThong · 14/09/2014 12:55

It's the invisible badges that identify us Wink

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grandtheftmanual · 14/09/2014 12:56

Bideyinn - perhaps because a no voter wouldn't have found it quite so congenial, in fact possibly quite threatening.

StatisticallyChallenged · 14/09/2014 12:58

I don't know about the BBC tv news but they certainly had pictures of the Buchanan Street gathering on the website.

I suspect that gathering only felt warm and friendly if you were a part of it. I suspect most no voters who knew it was happening opted to be elsewhere. I would have.

PhaedraIsMyName · 14/09/2014 13:00

Salmond says a lot of things. Remember he said he had a favourable legal opinion on the EU

I don't believe for 1 second he has had negotiations re EU. With whom and why now rather than next week?

PhaedraIsMyName · 14/09/2014 13:02

City centre yesterday. It was amazing, thousands and thousands of people who support YES from all walks of life, milling around, talking etc. it was very friendly and warm, quite emotional actually*
For you perhaps. I expect my emotional reaction would be quite different.
.

WhatWouldFreddieDo · 14/09/2014 13:03

Bide yin, Glasgow seems v pro Indy compared to many other areas - I wouldn't dare walk thru Glasgow wearing a No sticker Grin

Interesting comparing New Zealand up thread - of course huge difference being our geographic reality - nearest neighbour just a short train ride away

Also very good opinion piece by Andrew Gilligaan in Torygraph today: eurgh can't link as connection here like treacle

StatisticallyChallenged · 14/09/2014 13:05

YES voters seem to think they have a monopoly on emotion. They don't. I had someone come up to me at the stall I was helping on yesterday. She started thanking me for doing something to try and keep the UK together. Then she actually started crying, she was so utterly distressed. When she left, I saw her get stopped by the Yes campaigners nearby. Even when she started to get upset again, they wouldn't leave her alone.

OneNight · 14/09/2014 13:06

Phaedra

'Starting negotiations' could mean as little as phoning up and saying 'Hello, this is Alex Salmond, could we fix a time to meet next week if my party wins the Scottish referendum?' That's all. The Yes campaign are trying to keep his name in the public eye while at the same time attempting to address any perceived areas of weakness. That requires near hourly sound bites from the Press Office.

WildThong · 14/09/2014 13:06

This positive/negative thing is a bit of a red herring that's pushed at all opportunities by the Yes campaign. I actually think that any rational person should see it as condescending. Negative arguments are just as important and relevant as positive ones. Sure, positive stuff, even if shallow and vacuous, can be far more galvanizing of the masses, but the rational individual should be able to look beyond that to the cold merits of what is being said, rather than the suggested emotive direction of what is being said.

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AnnieHoo · 14/09/2014 13:07

Total BS. To paraphrase a comment from that Scotsman article that rang true for me:

Salmond is a master of impression management.

He wants to create the impression that his Independent Scottish Government is already in negotiations with the EU.

It's all part of the "we are creating the momentum" narrative that wants undecideds to believe independence is inevitable.

grovel · 14/09/2014 13:07

Fontella, brilliant post.

livingzuid · 14/09/2014 13:08

biddeyinn there is also more to Scotland than Glasgow. There's more to this country than a few thousand people milling around waving the Saltaire thinking the promised land is just round the corner. I personally find that level of nationalism very intimidating indeed and I would also have done so in England.

fontella that's a great post (although I'd disagree on your assessment of the EU Grin)

As for whether he can start negotiation, I think there's a big difference between sending a delegation to Brussels and formally opening that discussion (which I didn't think you could do as Scotland still is part of the UK like it or not right now) and placing a few phone calls. I mean, why would anyone waste the money if it was a no vote on putting resource in? Can I remind the jubliant Yes supporters that there are still no guarantees and a No vote is still ahead in all but two polls and gaining ground again in some areas (the yes polls which were quite dodgy?).

Chairthing · 14/09/2014 13:09

bideyinn I was also in Glasgow City Centre yesterday. There was a No stand just up from the Yes campaign on Sauchiehall Street. The No supporters were wandering around handing out flyers, stickers etc. I saw many more No stickers than Yes, but that could be because they were out amongst the people, whereas the Yes campaigners had stuck to their stall.

Fontella I could give you plenty of well-considered reasons for voting yes which don't involve tartan, The Corries or the Conservative party inserting something into their anus (ant-neoliberal economics? Fiscal freedom? Taking charge of an income stream and pushing forward with renewable energy? Taking responsibility for our own future and existence?) but if you don't support separation, then you are likely to dismiss it as "pie in the sky". I don't know how we've come to the point where anything positive about an independent Scotland is a pipe dream, and anything to do with remaining in the union is grounded in fact (nothing is certain).

Your language (Scotland should go. The neighbours won't roll over... no matter how they scream and shout) shows your bias and bigotry. You want Scotland to play fair, but have no intention of supporting fair play yourself. You are the reason we are here, and people like you, shouting "FINE THEN GO!" are an embarrassment to those who are genuinely committed to keeping the union together.

Cloudhowe63 · 14/09/2014 13:09

Whatever the decision on Thursday, the way forward is to acknowledge that everyone is voting with patriotism and conscience. We all want the best for Scotland. My partner and I are on different sides - I probably won't LTB! ( new poster - haven't figured out smiley face)

PhaedraIsMyName · 14/09/2014 13:09

Just read that interview re supposed EU negotiations. He is lying.