Indyref 10. The Marathon Continues..

[WildThong]

All welcome

SpiritedWolf you need political opposition and a healthy political spectrum, surely?

Oh yes definitely. I'm not advocating a one party state. Sorry if my post was a bit muddled. I was trying to express as others did that I don't see how left-leaning supporters of independence who feel it is going to address the challenges of the poorest - especially when they express their distrust in all three Westminster parties to do so and admit that they aren't huge fans of the current Scottish government either.

It is not being part of the UK that prevents the Scottish government from eradicating poverty. It's a mixture of priorities (the SNP's priority is independence and it has suited that purpose to play down the powers the current Scottish government already has) and the fact that eradicating poverty or the effects of poverty on people is a complex matter. Again I'm not an expert in this and would defer to posters who know more about how to do it.

Done in England, one way this was addressed during the Labour government years was by supporting families in disadvantaged areas through Sure Start centres. Although there might have been a few smaller projects of a similar nature in Scotland, I think a national initiative like this might work well. (I don't pretend to know the ins and outs of the similar programmes offered in Scotland, but I don't think there was/is anything in my area quite like a sure start centre with lots of activities and educational classes.)

Rita, I think I know you. We definitely mix in the same circle. I'll make this as general as I can as other posters may be interested, but I'm afraid I must disagree with a lot of what you're posting.

You said health and education, crucial in reducing health inequalities, although devolved is funded by WM. As is everything really. Via our devolved SG funding is heartbreakingly misallocated by our SNP government. Google Whitehill School then Jordanhill School. They are perpetuating that systematic inequality now, today, by choice.

The Scottish Government has chosen to fund a mother and baby unit in Smithycroft High. Imagine the impact of that on our most vulnerable women during their formative years. Enabling, I believe.

When I was at the beginning of my career I used to think inequality was a genuine evil. I strongly felt it never did any good. Now I know there is a benefit to politicians in inequality, and believe that's why the Scottish Government have threaded it further into out social fabric. NHSGGC are prescribing Weight Watchers. That's a flipping brand with shareholders, you don't get much more privatised!

Like I say, I did used to think inequality was a genuine evil. But then I started to wonder why personal responsibility didn't have it's role in our profession. When you can blame Westminster for everything what we end up with are classes full of people learning to cook spag bol. Which is good. But it's also bad because the very fact that this class, that out jobs, exist is bad. And it's created the cohort of Yes voters who are easily swayed by the notion that it's all Westminster's fault, no personal responsibility for reading to your child (the teacher will do it) brushing your child's teeth (the Childsmile woman will do it). I'm ashamed to say I'm part of the industry that has manipulated the vast sway of Yes voters into changing the world for the vanity of a man whose suicide prevention policy stated that suicidal people were a burden to the economy (Towards A Mentally Flourishing Scotland). Thankfully my turmoil will end, our jobs will be gone soon. Either way on Thursday, what we're doing isn't working, multiple indices or not.

I'm truly saddened at this point. Our country is spilt in two. The final vote seems a little irrelevant atm, and in my darkest moments I wonder if this is how wars start.

Incidentally Rita, I'm sure you know where to find the Scottish Social Attitudes Survey. And if it is you, you're doing a great job. You really are. I just know none of us are doing enough.

Oh, no Sure Start in Scotland.

Hi, to all who remember my posts on this topic previously (who will know that if I had a vote it would certainly be No)

I am down in NZ, which is a country of similar a similar population to Scotland and which, like Scotland, has a strong tradition of egalitarianism and a belief in opportunities for all. Parts of our education system, including its universities, bear a strong Scottish imprint. So, these are my thoughts such as may be relevant to Scotland, where I used to live. NZ has been independent from the UK since 1907.

1. Keeping the Queen as head of state. Seems like a non-issue. The only difference is one rarely sees the Queen down here. She is represented by the Governor-General instead. All the GG does is sign Acts of Parliament into law.

1. iScotland's currency would bounce like a toddler on a trampoline. That's what happens to the dollar. In the last ten years it's doubled in value against the pound and the US dollar. The Reserve Bank can only do so much to control it. And while an increase might seem good, the reality is that it has driven down exports and put some people out of business. It is to do with the small size of the economy, and the fact it fluctuates means that currency traders use it to ride up increases and sell short at other times, creating a vicious circle. There are a few economists who have suggested that NZ adopt the Australian dollar. However, the Australians have made it very clear that they wouldn't take NZ's economic circumstances into acccount in the way they manage their currency and would not countenance a currency union.

1. Small can be beautiful. Because government departments are smaller, its civil servants have to be allrounders. This means that (in my experience at least) you can phone a government department because of problems with tax, benefit, passports, you name it, and pretty much always get to talk to someone who knows what they're talking about and has the power to make a decision for you. Much better than the UK.

4, Small means you're closer to your politicians. Go down to Wellington, and you'll see senior politicians out and about. No one thinks it's odd to make a submission a bill in Parliament. MPs are generally locals, unless they've been elected off the top-up list, or at least known in the local community. It's rare for an NZ politician to appear out of touch. In fact, it is the supreme crime for which there is no forgiveness.

1. ..but small means one size fits all. Gvt services here are much less sophisticated than in the UK. Because there are less people, it becomes less practical to have laws and policies that take account of various different groups. As a result, the tax and benefit system fits many people quite badly. The health system often has to fly people off to Australia because the treatment isn't available here, and it doesn't offer anything like the range of medication that the NHS has. Many people are privately insured even though the health system here is free at the point of use, like the NHS.

1. There is no guarantee of equality. NZ considers itself very egalitarian. But it isn't. On some measures, wealth extremes are greater than in the UK, something which I can't understand because the country is definitely less flash than the UK (ie, where are all the rich people?). In fact, NZ's conception of itself as egalitarian has meant that one one believes that inequality is really a problem.

1. Political debate is under-informed. There simply isn't the same level of comment as in the UK, or research. It isn't possible because there aren't the people to study it or specialise in relevant areas. Opinion polls happen once in a blue moon. One hapless example was the survey after prostitution was legalised in 2005. Whether or not the law change was successful was based on one single survey which actually excluded sex workers who did not have English as their first language, ie, by far the most vulnerable.

1. Decisions get made by consensus, which means woe betide you if you find yourself on the wrong side of the argument, even if you are right.

1. It's hard to balance your economy. Again, because the economy is small, a growth area can quickly become the sole economic driver. Example: sale of milk products to China. Now so important, that the government has got itself tied in knots about a) not offending the Chinese who buy it and b) the amount of cow effluent entering our waterways. The UK has no industry that is comparatively so dominant, not even financial services.

1. When your neighbour sneezes, you catch a cold. In this case, Australia or China. Particularly the former, as the NZ dollar tends to track the Australian dollar.

But because the above seem a bit negative, I will add some positives for balance.

10. Everyone likes you. NZ is too small to be offensive.

11. Your foreign policy can be flexible. Ours is. Because everyone likes us, no one gets hugely offended if we don't join in a war. NZ never sent combat troops to Iraq, and didn't send combat troops to Afghanistan until 2008. On the other hand, care must be taken because NZ's armed forces would be totally insufficient to defend the country from invasion. The Air Force doesn't even have a fighter division. The truth is that we would rely on help from Australia and the US, and hope they would be willing to provide it.

12. The country need not be monocultural. Plenty of immigration here, and everyone rubs along pretty well. In part, however, this is due to the fact that just about everyone has an immigrant grandparent, and most people's families weren't here 200 years ago. There is not the same sense of belonging to the land.

The big difference is that NZ never had an economy that was integrated to the UK. Even though it only became properly independent about 60 years after it first became a colony, it governed itself. I will say that in the 60s, Britain took about 60% of NZ exports. After Britain entered the EEC, this fell precipitiously. The country suffered about twenty years of genuinely hard times, and has never recovered its former affluence.

I will add that (insofar that anyone is making any comment) the attidude here is to wonder what the flying fuck the Scots are on about. People here don't consider the Scots to be all that distinct from the English in terms of their expectations, views and so on.

Thank you Toad. That is very interesting.

The Guardian reported that there were British Nationalist Neo-Nazis at the Orange Order march, so it seems a bit rich that the 'Yes' voters are getting all the nationalist comments.

toad that's an interesting perspective, thanks

Nick hardly relevant to the discussion, best ignored eh? Undesirable people turn up everywhere uninvited and unwelcome. Free country and all that..

That's very interesting, thanks Toad.

Ive just started a thread about that guardian article on the Orange order.
It's a disgrace.

The only reason it went off peacefully was because everyone was told to clear away from the area.

I really couldn't believe what I was seeing

I was pretty close by and certainly wasn't told to clear away. I'm no fan of the orange order but from what I saw it was actually very peaceful.

WildThong

I don't think it's irrelevant or should be ignored. In the last couple of weeks the 'Yes' voters have been vilified by the media as nationalist thugs intimidating the 'No' camp. It's been inferred by the worst scaremongers that an independent Scotland will be a bigoted, nationalist haven. Why is it best to ignore that there are actual Neo-Nazis in favour of a 'No' vote? We can't just ignore the things the social media spammers from the 'Better Together' campaign want us to ignore.

In case anyone hasn't seen it, this Guardian piece by Janice Galloway is one of the most hopeful articles I have read about the 'Yes' vote,

www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/13/voting-yes-scottish-independence-galloway

Social media spammers from the better together campaign...oh, the irony!

Are you implying that wildthong is part of the BT campaign?

There are 'bad' in both camps although some fail to see it

I m not questioning their right to march.
I'm questioning the article which seems to have decided this was some sort of happy unionist rally. And chose to ignore the 'no popery' banners etc.

So they've been given a positive article in the national media. With not critical line taken at all.

U even have a 'picture special' of the orange walk FFS.

Is anyone watching The Politics Shoe on Beeb 1? AS, AD and Al Pacino Live.

*show ! Och it's finished now. They were all looking v tired.

switches it on

NickAndNora

I think because it's dying out whereas for an element of the Yes campaigners it seems to be actually growing.

I come from an area where even 20 years ago people would have been afraid to go anywhere near an Orange march. Not so these days and in any case they're a pretty pitiful sight and viewed as such I think.

I think that most of the posters on this thread would view it as imperative to move forward from whatever happens on Thursday.

They're back!

I'll see if I can get it on iplayer later.

We can't just ignore the things the social media spammers from the 'Better Together' campaign want us to ignore

Are you accusing me of being a BT spammer?

It was pretty poor really, they're all a bit jaded. AS talking about a Team Scotland get together next week to start sorting out the country and inviting other top rate politicians to join in. He said it's not likely to happen on Friday but they'll start next weekend.

Willie Walsh appears to be backing independence