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Indyref 9

999 replies

IrnBruTheNoo · 11/09/2014 14:00

...

OP posts:
StatisticallyChallenged · 12/09/2014 20:06

The wee blue book has been widely debunked and shown to be extremely selective in its analysis, often cherry picking values from certain years, choosing averages over random periods of time (including in some cases ignoring the most recent years) etc, etc, etc.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 12/09/2014 20:07

A vote in a Danish newspaper has suggested that Scotland should be invited to join the Nordic CouncilGrin

WildThong · 12/09/2014 20:08

Oh great, we'll be fine for bacon then.

Roonerspism · 12/09/2014 20:08

I am not stirring.

Nationalism has caused more wars in the 20th century than religion. It's much more than being patriotic. It's about segregation and borders and dividing lines. Look at the major atrocities over the last century - from Hitler's Germany to Rwanda to Ukraine now. All in the name of "nationalism".

Why is "nationalism" seem as good?

Salmond is utterly anti-English and every anti-Westminster reference backs that up.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 12/09/2014 20:09

values from certain years, choosing averages over random periods of time (including in some cases ignoring the most recent years) etc, etc, etc.

But it does link to the sources, which TBH can be hard to find.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 12/09/2014 20:13

Nationalism has caused more wars in the 20th century than religion. It's much more than being patriotic. It's about segregation and borders and dividing lines. Look at the major atrocities over the last century - from Hitler's Germany to Rwanda to Ukraine now. All in the name of "nationalism".

Nice to know you think that is comparable to Scotland in the UK Shock

Why is "nationalism" seem as good?
You need to define what you mean by "nationalism* before I can answer that. But I can say that yes, a country governing itself is a good thing.

Salmond is utterly anti-English and every anti-Westminster reference backs that up.

I would like to see some examples as I'm not quite sure what you mean. Confused

ChelsyHandy · 12/09/2014 20:15

Can you imagine if there was a Yes vote, being stuck in this awful wrangling and arguing, but this time with a less friendly, more competitive, rejected England? On and on and on, currency union, taxation, companies leaving, how long it will take to join the ECHR and EU, listening to politicians droning on and on, same on FB and Twitter, constant tv programmes about it, etc, etc, etc..

I just want to live in a normal country!

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 12/09/2014 20:17

I just want to live in a normal country!

Me too!Smile One that governs itself would be a good start...

StatisticallyChallenged · 12/09/2014 20:18

TBH at this point I'm wondering if we should start separate Yes and No threads

IrnBruTheNoo · 12/09/2014 20:18

Fantastic first post on this thread SarahScotia Smile

OP posts:
trixymalixy · 12/09/2014 20:19

I've not come across anyone who quotes the wee blue book as fact who has gone back to the original sources. One even told me that Westminster agreed with the figures and it showed they were lying to us Hmm. They go a bit quiet when I start debunking it and then say they're voting yes despite the economic figures.

I'll say this for it, it has been an amazingly successful bit of propaganda!

EarthWindFire · 12/09/2014 20:22

TBH at this point I'm wondering if we should start separate Yes and No threads

I'm not sure tbf

StatisticallyChallenged · 12/09/2014 20:23

I'm not either earth, just musing.

WildThong · 12/09/2014 20:25

irn
well you would say that Grin
I don't happen to agree.

SantanaLopez · 12/09/2014 20:25

Nah, we don't want any more coven accusations!

We're all in this mess together, yes or no.

IrnBruTheNoo · 12/09/2014 20:26

I've thoroughly enjoyed debating with you all this far. It has been fraught at times, but all in good nature. We're all just passionate about what we believe in. :)

OP posts:
cricketpitch · 12/09/2014 20:27

I think that would be a shame. Seeing both sides, good and bad, is vital.
I see ordinary people with different views. It helps keep things sane.

People are bound to get heated - this affects everything and all of us.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 12/09/2014 20:27

I'll say this for it, it has been an amazingly successful bit of propaganda!

Yup, and entirely crowd funded. Hundreds of thousands printed by wings, tens of thousands printed by randoms, well over half a million downloads... Its certainly out there.

StatisticallyChallenged · 12/09/2014 20:28

Fair enough santana. I'm conscious that there are probably people who find the tone of these discussions increasingly confrontational and don't feel they can get involved, and who are maybe looking for something more supportive. Not saying we shouldn't have debate threads.

ChelsyHandy · 12/09/2014 20:28

I can imagine still being referred to that bloody wee blue book and * Bella &&&&&&& Caledonia years after the Referendum. I can imagine negotiations with AS or NS (or their clones with different names) and the suave Dutch, French and German European Commissioners. "Have you considered the issues of subsidiarity and how it will via the mechanism of horizontal and vertical direct affect impact upon your parliamentary sovereignty, albeit via the relevant Treaty provisions, considering your recent national and currency stated issues?"

AS/NS/Clone: "Och aye, its aw in thon Wee Blue Book".

I feel like organising a mass ceremonial burning of that feckin Wee Blue Book, its been shoved down my throat so often. I would say that I'm against burning of literature, but since its self-published fan fiction, it doesn't count.

SantanaLopez · 12/09/2014 20:29

self-published fan fiction

Grin
Roonerspism · 12/09/2014 20:29

itsall I do have genuine concerns about the mentality that will exist in an independent Scotland, yes. Not from anyone on this thread. But the aggressive anti-English rhetoric I have seen from a number of the yes voters has been desperately unpleasant. I have seen "f off back to England more than once on Facebook. I am utterly ashamed.

Where would that end? My English friend tonight told me that racist insults to her have increased in the last few months. She feels less welcome here.

If the yes vote goes through, I have grave concerns about the type of place Scotland will become.

What led to Nazi Germany was a combination of deep post war recession and a clever sociopath championing nationalism to the masses and riches for all.

Of course I would not be so offensive to argue Scotland would turn into Nazi Germany. But with all this philosophical championing of national idealism, I think we have to remember what it often means.

StatisticallyChallenged · 12/09/2014 20:30

Ha ha ha at "Self published fan fiction". It's a pretty good description

EarthWindFire · 12/09/2014 20:31

I've thoroughly enjoyed debating with you all this far. It has been fraught at times, but all in good nature. We're all just passionate about what we believe in.

Very true (see we can agree Grin )

prettybird · 12/09/2014 20:31

I do always click through to the sources in any article - whether that be the Wee Blue Book, the BBC or a Wikipedia article. :)

Of the three, the BBC is the worst at providing source material Wink