Indyref 9

[IrnBruTheNoo]

...

"I care about democracy."

That's one of the many reasons I'm voting Yes. I appreciate your POV though grovel. It's all sincere. :)

But they didn't say that. He's taking a statement which doesn't seem to exist and using it as the basis for an exaggerated argument about scare headlines.

You're constantly talking about bias and inaccurate reporting. Then you link to what looks rather like it yourself.

And I didn't expect the Guardian to change your view. Alex Salmond himself could stand up and say "this is a fucking shit idea, the economics do not work and will be an impoverished nation for a generation" and you would still vote yes. I thought it might interest other people especially as they are a pretty lefty, tory hating newspaper who has produced a fairly even number of stories supporting both sides

I can't link from Twitter but I've just seen a post from a Better Together saying:

"A number of high street banks are planning to leave Scotland if we seperate from the rest of the UK".

Oh dear...even a No voter has had to correct them. How embarrassing.

But... the UK always gets the government it votes for. What's not democratic about that?

But... the UK always gets the government it votes for. What's not democratic about that? grin

Its perfectly fair in terms of representation per head. However, as the population is concentrated in the SE of England it does not give equal representation to each region.

And the population of Scotland is concentrated in the central belt.

Areas with more people will get more representatives. There is no other way it can really work, unless you propose constituencies based on square mileage.

And the population of Scotland is concentrated in the central belt

Areas with more people will get more representatives. There is no other way it can really work, unless you propose constituencies based on square mileage.

I agree with both of these points. In our current system if you are not based in the SE of England you have little representation, and politics will not prioritise your area. And this sucks, especially when your region tends to favour parties that aren't in charge.

Scotland is in the fortunate position of being a country, thus making a referendum about independence possible. Now if Shetland felt that being ruled from Edinburgh wasn't working for them, I would fully support them having a referendum on independence, or Yorkshire, or Cornwall re WM.

Obviously below a certain population size independence may be more difficult to sustain (but IOM does OK), fortunately Scotland is a pretty good size as countries go - big enough to be sustainable, small enough that it is easy and efficient to administer.

Hi all, I am new here. I didn't even know the chat side of this site existed until I read about it thus week in the indyref press. Wanted to sign up and join in....

I am a firm yes voter. I have been pretty disgusted this week by the levels the BT campaign and the bbc/media have stooped to....but then we knew it was coming. All these years to hammer out the issues, then coincidentally the sky starts falling the week before the vote. It's like the closing stages of a relationship when someone starts the desperate "you'll die without me" emotive pleas. :)

I believe there is a sound fiscal case for Scotland to be independent, but most of all, I just seek the hope. Year after year, the world becomes an increasingly less trusting and cold place....people focus more on accumulating "stuff"....wealth flows from poor to rich. Where is the love, the hope? I am under no illusion that the establishing of Scotland as an independent nation will be easy, but I believe the alternative to have already failed. I feel a real appetite for change here on a people level, and believe that Scotland still has the character to be a great and unique country on the global stage, to tackle it's own problems head on and to ultimately be a place where people matter above all else.

I am fed up of being condescended to by the very people that have failed Britain both ethically and politically on levels not seen before. We are not too wee or too stupid to look after ourselves. We are a country of bright minds, we have the people, the resources and the drive to overcome every hurdle we face. I just think we need the hope that the chance of freedom shall bring....I want that for my children so badly...and I worry so much that this chance will be lost due to fear. As Hamish Henderson wrote "never heed whit the hoodies croak for doom". Be bold Scotland!

Scotland through devolution already has the power to control local services. Further powers are already on the statue book for 2016, and as a result of the current referendum all the major parties are promising even greater powers.

I don't think we need to risk the downsides of independence - the first of which is to lose our democratic representatives at Westminster despite all the things that Alex Salmond still wants decided at a UK level - in order to have different policies for things in the geographical area of Scotland.

But what it comes down to is nationalism, not democracy. You think that the Scottish people are so different to the rest of the UK that we can no longer make decisions about these islands with our English, Welsh and NI neighbours. That instead of deciding things as the people through elected representatives, we should put those decisions in the hands of the rUK and lobby them with unelected diplomats and officials appointed by the Scottish government.

I can understand thinking that X or Y should be decided at a different level of governance (be that local council, Scottish government, UK or Europe) but not that there are no decisions to be made at a UK level.

Actually neither does the White Paper or Yes campaign, with UK level decision making suggested from everything from our currency, interest rates, energy policies, research funding, border controls, etc.) but without the democratic voice of the Scottish people, without UK institutions considering Scottish interests. Instead we are to rely on Scottish officials to lobby these institutions and presumably bluff and bluster diplomacy if AS and NS are anything to go by.

Sounds a lot to me like less democracy, not more.

Nice post SarahScotia and welcome to Mumsnet. Now get your flameproof suit on quick!

Hello Sarah, nicely written, I disagree with much of it though.

Now I'm humming Where Is The Love by the Black Eyed Peas so thanks for that!

Now I'm humming Where Is The Love by the Black Eyed Peas so thanks for that!

Me too

Hi sarah actually, the debate on here has been very civilised in the main.

The idealism of the yes voters isn't different to that of the no voters on this thread. The only difference I can see is that the no voters are scratching their heads in disbelief at the lack of economic case for independence.

I personally would also go further to add that I fundamentally disagree with nationalism as a concept. It's an evil doctrine and many atrocities carried out in its name. Salmond talks about anti-Westminster which is really a reference to anti-English.

Anyway, what is behind your belief for the fiscal case for independence?

Scotland through devolution already has the power to control local services. Further powers are already on the statue book for 2016,

Welfare?
Defence?
Full control of taxes and budget?

and as a result of the current referendum all the major parties are promising even greater powers.

I don't believe that would happen in the slightest. Why would it?

But what it comes down to is nationalism, not democracy. You think that the Scottish people are so different to the rest of the UK that we can no longer make decisions about these islands with our English, Welsh and NI neighbours. That instead of deciding things as the people through elected representatives, we should put those decisions in the hands of the rUK and lobby them with unelected diplomats and officials appointed by the Scottish government.

Scottish people as a whole vote differently to rUK as a whole. We have our own NHS, legal system, education system. So yes, we are different.

I can understand thinking that X or Y should be decided at a different level of governance (be that local council, Scottish government, UK or Europe) but not that there are no decisions to be made at a UK level.

I agree that a devo-max throughout the UK would be a good thing, but it was taken off the ballot for Scotland, and the UK wouldn't even vote for PR so I don't see why there would be an appetite for this.

with UK level decision making suggested from everything from our currency, interest rates, energy policies, research funding, border controls, etc.) but without the democratic voice of the Scottish people, without UK institutions considering Scottish interests

No country can operate in a vacuum. In that sense no country is ever truly independent. Even if I agreed with your list (which I don't), even if we ceded control over those things to WM/others we would still be a lot more independent than we are now. Is the UK not an independent country because it is in the EU?

Salmond talks about anti-Westminster which is really a reference to anti-English.

Erm. No its not. Stop trying to stir things.

Scotland didn't vote for PR either ItsAll

.We are not too wee or too stupid to look after ourselves.

Did anyone ever say that? A lot of yes voters use that line.

As far as I can determine, the "too wee, too poor, too stupid" line actually originated from the SNP. Possibly with Swinney.

Erm. No its not. Stop trying to stir things.

And talking about 'team Scotland' and 'team Westminster' doesn't stir things?

I want to know what you think the fiscal case for independence is too. Although generally I find people that say that then link to the wee blue book.........

"too wee, too poor, too stupid"

Who has actually said that?

So as it's become mud slinging on either side and to temporarily call a football match on no mans land.

Would those voting yes accept a no vote and accept democracy has had it's say?

And talking about 'team Scotland' and 'team Westminster' doesn't stir things?

If it were team Scotland and team England you might have a point. But its not.

Too Wee:
Lots of comments about pooling and sharing amongst a bigger UK. There has definitely been comments on this thread about Scotland being too small, hence why I keep recommending the Credit Suisse publication

Too poor:
But the oil is running out. The banks will leave. You will lose EU subsidies. What about all the old folks pensions. You won't be able to sustain free tuition fees.

Too stupid.
Its just a dream. No grasp on reality. Have you actually looked at the economics? The fiscal situation? Most Yes voters haven't lived outside Scotland/are poorly educated/ ate working class.

No-one on the No side has said that particular phrase, but it is useful shorthand for all of the things they do say.

then link to the wee blue book

Original sources are referenced, so even if you don't agree with the analysis, its a useful shortcut to the sources.