Indyref 9

[IrnBruTheNoo]

...

Loving David Sole's interview live on Sky just now. Sorry don't know how to 'tape' something like that to share it. Obviously I'm posting this as he is a No but he speaks with such balance. Wish there were more like him.

I am really surprised that other Yes voters on this thread have nothing to say about the International Conference and Nick Robinson's question, and response from Alex Salmond re Treasury . Did no one see it??

Well all the evidence I have seen is that many many of the campaigning yes voters appear to be dreaming head in the cloud types. Dismissing valid questions and concerns.

Except there is no such thing as an EU citizen and there a EU embassies where?

EU Citizen: one who lives in an EU country
EU embassy: embassy of an EU country alll

And unless you have been asleep - Scotland wont be in the EU - much to the joy of many yes voters...

It is likely that Scotland will be in the EU. Just as it is likely rUK will leave the EU. Neither of these can be known for sure, however.

I think the EU might be surprised by that statement oddcommentator

EU Citizenship

"tape" ^^ showing my age there....

I am really surprised that other Yes voters on this thread have nothing to say about the International Conference and Nick Robinson's question, and response from Alex Salmond re Treasury . Did no one see it??

I did see, and my mouth hung open most unbecomingly However, I think we all already knew the BBC has been deeply biased throughout, so whilst shocking, not surprising. Apparently the BBC complaints line was red hot...

There was some pretty heavy editing on the Big Debate as well.

Dismissing valid questions and concerns.

Or in other words believing different answers and having different concerns. We are never going to agree. It is a shame you view Yessers as being simply wrong, rather than bwing able to accept that people can form different, equally valid, conclusions from the same evidence.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine - you said
"That is an overly pessimistic viewpoint. The only people who will definitely lose their jobs will be Scottish MPs."
This is not strictly true - in the event of a Yes vote my job will move South. If I am not willing to move with it I will lose my job (as will many hundreds of colleagues) This is not scaremongering -it has been decided, legally it cannot be any other way. I'm not in Financial Services but another quite specialized industry. Unfortunately there will not be a comparable role for my skills in an independent Scotland -al least not for another 4-5 years.

I find myself unable to stick up for BBC Scotland as they have been shown to be biased and guilty of 'poor editing' in relation to something else, unconnected to this, that I care about.

I don't trust anything put out by BBC Scotland, however I find BBC Radio5 live and Radio 4 quite balanced.

Point made about EU citizenship - but what about embassies? And EU citizenship does not automatically confer - such as the Faroe islanders are not EU citizens but are Danish Citizens.

Thus one could argued that Scotland becoming a new state (independence is not strictly what would happen - Scotland is in a Union - not a colony) they may through dint of continuance remain British citizens, but this does not mean that we would remain EU citizens.

EU citizens are entitled to consular support. This does not extend to allowing you to rent office space.

Mr Salmond has always been famous for his powers of debate and public speaking. He could sell sand to the Arabs.

I have heard this many times and I've really tried to see it and struggle. He seems to be quite a poor orator to me. He shouts and bluffs and seems designed only to appeal to those who already believe. If he carried on like that in most modern workplaces, he would be sacked. He isn't a good role model and doesn't create a good example of management.

He always sounds like he is bluffing his way through to me and he shouts to cover up his lack of substantive argument. Much of his argument consists of being rude and abusive about his political opponents.

I just can't imagine him negotiating well on Scotland's behalf in Europe. He isn't civil enough. The rest of Europe would think we were a bunch of idiots.

Nicola Sturgeon's debating technique seems very similar. Neither of them would do well in an international student debating competition. They simply don't operate at a high enough level.

I'd also hazard a guess that Salmond has become pretty deskilled in economics. He keeps making references to his one achievement, many years ago, while working for a Scottish bank and designed a model. While its more than many of the current untalented bunch of politicians have achieved, its less than the majority of professionals the same age as he that he is trying to persuade to vote yes will have done.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29170558

JD Wetherspoons boss said business leaders and politicians are talking 'nonsense'. There you have it. He isn't in the least concerned that in an independent Scotland his business will still be thriving.

Lem Grand I love what you said. I'm sick of people making out Scottish people are fairer, kinder, warmer, more tolerant than anyone else.They are all of those things but I could say that about people all over the UK. I'm sick of hearing Yes people saying 'we want away from Westminster so we can have a fairer country' Don't they think millions of people in England and Wales want the same thing? I lived abroad for 15 years and so a lot of poverty and unfairness. It made me appreciate what a fantastic country the UK is and the people in it. All of it not just Scotland.

Yes, I find it a bit of a silly claim and rather self centred and insular. But I think you need to experience living abroad to get more of a wider outlook if you are the sort of person to go around making claims like this.

I didn't, for example, find the INEOS scandal at Grangemouth fairer, kinder, warmer or more tolerant. It was a national embarrassment. For anyone who has forgotten, it involved one union official being sacked for using his paid work time to do non-work stuff, and was related to a scandal of people being signed up for a union without their consent, with their signatures being forged.

Chelsy you're entitled to your opinion.

I watched the Big Big Debate last night on the BBC and I must admit that Nicola Sturgeon was extremely sharp and knows her stuff. She put Davidson in her place several times. I have increasing admiration for Patrick Harvie now after last night's debate. He really showed up Galloway for the jibbering wally that he is.

Squatting I agree with you, Scottish folk will still drink regardless of the outcome! :)

Itsallgoing EU Citizen: one who lives in an EU country

No. EU citizen - citizen of an EU country. See the difference?

EU embassy: embassy of an EU country

I don't think there is such a thing. There are individual country's embassies, not EU embassies.

And it is likely that Scotland will be in the EU. Just as it is likely rUK will leave the EU. Neither of these can be known for sure, however.

You clearly know some secret that the EU doesn't! You wouldn't be spreading half truths and incorrect information, would you?

Would you like to explain how long this would take, why the White Paper didn't commit to a timescale, and which Treaty articles of which treat would be used and what sort of majority would be required and by whom?

I would say the threat of the EU leaving the EU is more of an attempt to negotiate better terms and more opt outs.

That isn't what he said Irn I watched the interview.

We think we can trade well there.

Is what he actually said not that they would 'thrive'

J D Wetherspoons are probably well placed to comment on running a successful chain of pubs and restaurants - not sure they are qualified to comment on every business sector.

Exactly Chelsy! I can't understand why he was declared the winner of the last TV debate. He just shouted over Darling. He reminded me of my teenage son.

OOAOML food and drink industry is a large part of the Scottish economy though so it's relevant all the same, IMO.

Fair enough EarthWindFire, my point really was that there is not any reason to believe they wouldn't do well in an independent Scotland. The article on the whole was not negative.

They have been talking about setting up joint EU missions, and some countries share premises already. And not every country has representation everywhere anyhow. So there are lots of possibilities for how iScotland could conduct international affairs. But they would have to pick up up the tab directly for office space/equipment, and provide/pay for the staff who look after Scottish interests (wherever they sit).

IrnBru I watched the Big Big Debate last night on the BBC and I must admit that Nicola Sturgeon was extremely sharp and knows her stuff. She put Davidson in her place several times. I have increasing admiration for Patrick Harvie now after last night's debate. He really showed up Galloway for the jibbering wally that he is.

The trouble is that once you get to international level, its not about winning a pub style argument by shouting the longest and talking without pausing for breath the longest, its about the quality of the content you are presenting and your bargaining position. Its also about making alliances and not pissing off too many other nations, which is a type of international diplomacy Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond just do not strike me as capable of.

So who would they use in an independent Scotland? Where are these trainee diplomats? At an international level, debate is done at a much more courteous and formal pace.

Irn Did we watch the same debate? Harvie spoke very little, it was mainly dominated by Nicola shouting at people.