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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Indyref 9

999 replies

IrnBruTheNoo · 11/09/2014 14:00

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OP posts:
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 12/09/2014 09:30

Don't you think Scotland may need the odd trade delegation

Of course we do. But rather than paying a share towards a trade delegation that may include an token Scot, we can pay the same or less share towards a delegation to promote purely Scottish interests.

oddcommentator · 12/09/2014 09:34

Appealing to nationalism? If you love your country vote yes?

Last refuge of the scoundrel.

Roseformeplease · 12/09/2014 09:38

I personally love the embassy idea from Salmond.

The Scots will get a share of British embassies, or will have an office in the embassies to focus on Scottish trade. This will, presumably, mean that they get their proportional square footage (maybe, let's say one office, a toilet and a turn with the kettle). They will then, from this office, try to compete to sell Scottish goods and services to, for example, China.

I don't see how that will work and how this will ensure that Scotland continues to sell as much whisky, salmon, tweed etc overseas.

grandtheftmanual · 12/09/2014 09:38

I really, really love Scotland too, and I'm voting no.

Wha's like us? Lots of people. I don't buy this business of the people of Scotland being different to everyone else, fairer, funnier, kinder etc etc. We're just like everyone else. After a yes vote there will still be rich people, poor people, greedy people, ignorant people, feckless people and lovely people. Just like there is now.

The statement that we're only voting whether Scotland should become an independent country is being used more and more by yes supporters - perhaps because they realise we are being offered absolutely nothing more.

Criseyde asked a few threads ago what part of democracy would we be prepared to give up to have economic security. I don't think it's about giving up democracy. We live in a democracy. Those who say - but we never (or perhaps rarely) get the government we choose - many Scots did and do. We do not vote as a homogeneous mass.

WhatWouldFreddieDo · 12/09/2014 09:39

ItsAll But it's not really a question of whether Scotland governs itself or not, it's whether Westminster or Brussels governs it - if the Yeses win, the next move will be applying to join the EU, swapping one distant parliament with another.

At least a No vote gives us a chance to reshape the political relationship within the UK from the bottom up. See here for how our campaign is really shaking up the whole country

oddcommentator · 12/09/2014 09:40

Rose - you would leave the UK - the embassies belong to the UK. You would be able to lease space from UK or any other embassy -

but you would have left the UK. Why should they help a foreign and competitor country?

Give me one valid reason why they would or should?

Raintown · 12/09/2014 09:40

IAGTBF: Scotland has many assets, but as I've said before the economy is very narrowly based, principally Oil, Financial Services, Food & Drink and Tourism. We know the uncertainty around Oil and now Financial Services, so that basically leaves Manufacturing/Food & Drink and Tourism.

England is our biggest market for each of these, accounting for over 60% of GDP, so why would we turn our best friend/customer into our biggest competitor? (a cliche, but true nonetheless).Then there are the 1M jobs with English-based companies and the opportunities it has given 800,000 Scots in recent years. Do you really want to restrict your childrens' futures?

With the additional powers offered, we are on our way to a better, fully-devolved Britain, where different shades of socio-political opinion can be reflected, without losing the benefits of the larger UK platform.

oddcommentator · 12/09/2014 09:43

This is the point that many people perhaps miss. Leaving the UK means leaving the UK - why then should the rUK do anything other than look after its interests?

The currency union wouldn't be in rUK interests - why would they? because you are threatening not to repay a little bit of your share of the debt? IS that what its down to?

Embassy's, trade delegations - you name it - why would they? the focus on the UK will be on its interests alone.

sconequeen · 12/09/2014 09:44

You are saying the decision relates solely to a philosophical question. But it can't possibly be answered without considering what it means in practice.

Sometime it is about the philosophical question. For example, the abolition of slavery or and the abolition of child labour had economic implications. But it was still right to abolish them. (And before anyone dives in, no, I am not comparing No voters with anti-abolitionists, just demonstrating from history that it is not always about the money.)

For Yes voters, the principle that a country should be able to govern itself is they key issue in this debate.

All this economic scaremongering is missing a key point in any case. An independent Scotland would be able to grow its economy to be stronger than it is just now, by providing the targeted support that our different sectors require. That could and most probably would include different tax regimes, different business rates schemes, incentives for inward location, support for training... And we would also have the ability to look at developing different models for issues such as transportation and more local sourcing of food which would not only help with pricing but also cut food miles and be more environmentally sustainable in the longer term.

If you listen carefully to what the financial institutions are saying, they are waiting to see what conditions would be like in an independent Scotland. An independent Scotland would have the ability to make Scotland an attractive place for these institutions to do business.

lem73 · 12/09/2014 09:48

Grand I love what you said. I'm sick of people making out Scottish people are fairer, kinder, warmer, more tolerant than anyone else.They are all of those things but I could say that about people all over the UK. I'm sick of hearing Yes people saying 'we want away from Westminster so we can have a fairer country' Don't they think millions of people in England and Wales want the same thing? I lived abroad for 15 years and so a lot of poverty and unfairness. It made me appreciate what a fantastic country the UK is and the people in it. All of it not just Scotland.

oddcommentator · 12/09/2014 09:50

Scone - in what way is it scaremongering when it has already started?

You assertions on what Scotland could do are already fully within the remit of Holyrood. Why haven't they done anything about it?

And pray - do tell - where will the money come for these incentives and targeted support?

Quit claiming that asking difficult questions is scare mongering. Admit plain and simple you don't have the answers, that you havent fully thought through the implications and that you are simply appealing to naked nationalism, sentimentalism and a teeny bit of racism. Go on - deep down you know its true

WhatWouldFreddieDo · 12/09/2014 09:51

sconequeen I do understand your point that it's a philosophical question and that you believe that being independent is the only right thing to do.

But the way we are going about it is so divisive, destructive and the campaigns so muddled or downright misleading, I strongly believe that we should take more time - a gradual split, with a much bigger majority in favour .

At the moment so many people are feeling bullied into this sudden split.

WhatWouldFreddieDo · 12/09/2014 09:54

ah, of course, the ends justify the means

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 12/09/2014 09:55

I strongly believe that we should take more time - a gradual split, with a much bigger majority in favour

Its a shame WM vetoed devo-max

Mrsfatso · 12/09/2014 09:55

I have a question! If yes win narrowly, do you think pro union movements will spring up across the uk that will campaign for a uk wide referendum to join together again? Or say for example the borders as looks likely deliver a no majority- will there be a movement to integrate them into England?

grandtheftmanual · 12/09/2014 09:55

Sconequeen - the abolition of slavery/child labour was absolutely the right thing to do. Scotland becoming independent is not on the same philosophical level, and there are strong and actually quite moral arguments for a no vote too.

Raintown · 12/09/2014 09:58

sconequeen: Its not scaremongering, its economic reality. Jobs created by any 'targeted initiatives' would be dwarfed by those at risk through our changed relationship with England and the rest of the UK.

If an independent Scotland tries to attract business at the expense of the rUK by lowering rates etc, they are not just going to stand by and let it happen. It would become a race to the bottom, with a market of 60M people against one of 5M.

That's what I mean by turning your best friend/customer into your biggest competitor.

WhatWouldFreddieDo · 12/09/2014 10:02

Mrsfatso who knows - possibly. We might be all so exhausted, but perhyaps there'll be clear No areas that can campaign to move the border. No sure England would be much interested Grin

Cambiodenombre · 12/09/2014 10:04

I think grands point is spot on

WhatWouldFreddieDo · 12/09/2014 10:04

ItsAll I agree, more than a shame, a disaster. Which is why for me No is the only sensible response.

PlasticPinkFlamingo · 12/09/2014 10:08

Mrsfatso that was something that was a potential factor in the 1995 Quebec referendum as the Cree and Inuit First Nations in the province voted 96% in favour of remaining part of Canada. Their territory covered huge swathes of Northern Quebec.

Obviously that particularly problem didn't need to be negotiated through.

And if there are areas that strongly vote no, I could potentially see that happening. Legalities aside, it would certainly add a whole other level of destabilisation to the negotiations.

IrnBruTheNoo · 12/09/2014 10:10

This is the full conference from yesterday. BBC News cherry picked it for all to see on their news channel. Apparently Nick Robinson didn't get an answer to his question but on this Youtube clip you'll see Alex Salmond DOES infact answer Robinson's question. I am totally shocked at the corruption going on the BBC. This is really not on. I hope the enquiry goes ahead re: Treasury leak and now the International Press Conference that has gone ahead will show WM for what it really is.

OP posts:
WildThong · 12/09/2014 10:12

irn you didn't answer my (and other) previous question. Do you think that No voters can't love Scotland?

WildThong · 12/09/2014 10:12

Others

WhatWouldFreddieDo · 12/09/2014 10:13

sorry, but I am beyond watching that man any more.