Indyref8

[grovel]

ItsAllGoingToBeFine, but who will be Prime Minister? Pretty unsatisfactory changing halfway through. My suggestion was that maybe Cameron, Clegg, Miliband et al agree on a team and step back themselves. It would make the end result a joint enterprise and could prevent years of feuding in rUK.

I read the Monbiot article and thought it was utter tosh. And I'm a regular Guardian reader.

Not sure what you're on about re "accident of birth inheritance dim intellect" comments. The only thing I can think of for myself as being an accident of birth was being clever and not afraid of hard work.

Now at 55 I face the prospect of seeing my pension pot dwindle to nothing as it's sacrificed on the twin alters of Salmond's vanity and the notion that it is inherently evil to be allowed to keep the money you earn

why are people even talking about Alex Salmond - the vote isn't an election. People Don't Be Crazy. Its only got one question on it, and it's nothing to do with one man or his party.

Party politics and policies later, ladies. Thems the facts, yes? Or do you want to have no say in what happens in this country? If you're happy being kept women, you go for it and vote NO. I for one, know my own mind and don't need some bunch of feckless Eton coasters to make my decisions for me.

your pension pot is absolutely fine, as is anyone's up to this point. Stay in the UK and you might find out differently.

Accident of birth, meaning that it isn't hard work that leads to wealth, quite the contrary. Capital breeds capital as we know, I'm sure you did economics at uni?

Night Night!
I'm going to bed before the trolls come out

Hmm, I may be going out on a limb here but maybe calling people 'kept women' for voting no possibly isn't the best way of getting people to change their views. Just saying.

Ah, that was my mistake AnnieHoo

I'm sorry, you're right, i didn't mean 'kept women' in the real sense of the word vis-a-vis any actual woman, I meant it as an allegory of Scottish affairs being governed by England. Sorry for any accidental offence.

Could you be much more patronising?

"Party politics and policies later, ladies. Thems the facts, yes? Or do you want to have no say in what happens in this country? If you're happy being kept women, you go for it and vote NO. I for one, know my own mind and don't need some bunch of feckless Eton coasters to make my decisions for me."

" I'm sure you did economics at uni?"

Yes, I did actually. And postgrad via professional qualifications. And I'm a solid no voter with a penchant for researching numbers and discussing solid facts. As I'm sure the other "ladies" on this thread will support.

There are many things I could be accused of. Knowing my own mind is most certainly not one of them.

Oh and hard work is serving me pretty well, thanks.

LadyCameronLewis

It is about Salmond because he, of all of his government, is the one who is fronting the Yes campaign and making the promises to the people of Scotland. (Many of them about bread and circuses.) The integrity and basis of those promises is therefore allied with the integrity and basis of the man himself. Do you really think that he will stand down in the event of a Yes vote? Or that this matter would even be up for discussion if a Yes campaign was fronted by Donald Dewar and Sam Galbraith? (Or Kenny Macaskill, who could presumably say the same things as Salmond if he wished but with a markedly different result I would imagine.)

You seem to think that the Scots are unique in disliking WM control but I think if you went into a pub in Yorkshire or Cumbria or indeed most places north of Watford, you would receive much the same message. The answer surely is not to split off in the hope that somehow there will be a miraculous sea-change without much effort on the part of ordinary Scots but to buckle down and work with all others as Dewar would surely have done if he had lived.

He must be turning in his grave right now at the thought of how much has been wasted since his death and at the prospect of his beloved countrymen at each others' throats.

That is part of the problem, not only for many Scots but for the rest of the country and the rest of the world. Not whether there should be independence but whether it should be at this time - and most importantly in this way.

Plus. There is one question on the ballot paper. But the decision behind the answer to that question is infinitely more complex. It draws on hopes, fears, dreams, realities, beliefs, expectations...it draws on the information available to us, and the promises and pledges being made.

Accident of birth, meaning that it isn't hard work that leads to wealth, quite the contrary. Capital breeds capital as we know, I'm sure you did economics at uni?

No I did law. And I'm sorry to disillusion you but what wealth I have I earned.

Statistically you have been the star of these threads. Consistently well argued, solid facts and you've kept calm and cool unlike just about everyone else.

Aww thanks Phaedra. Don't feel calm and cool sometimes!

Statistically : "There are many things I could be accused of. Knowing my own mind is most certainly not one of them".

Did anyone else think a 'not' is definitely needed in this sentence :)? Great post otherwise

Definitely need two (not)s or none.:)

No one is at anyone's throat, are they? Not that I see, although I haven't read the whole of this thread. I totally agree that those in Cumbria, Cornwall, Yorkshire, Newcastle... etc. etc. feel the same about westminster - hence me sharing the Monbiot piece from the Graun. What could be more galvanising than an actual return to representative democracy? We aren't having an election until 2016 so there's no possibility of Salmond or anyone else taking power in any situation. Whoever deserves to be voted in will be voted in and the people will get who they actually vote for under the Scottish proportional representation system. It's that simple. We're all intelligent people, this isn't the daily mail. Google it.

Yes, true PettyBetty. Typos, the curse of an enthusiastic poster! Especially at 1am

"It's that simple. We're all intelligent people, this isn't the daily mail."

You're being exceptionally patronising. There are a lot more issues to consider with regards to independence than just who will be in power. Try reading some of the 7 threads we've chewed through discussing them. For a small number of people it's as simple as "where will we be governed" but actually, I'd say that these threads show that for the vast majority of posters, yes and no, there is more to it than just that.

Trying to work out if the LadyCameronLewis was planted by the Yes or No camp.

It seems so resolutely intent on irritating people to vote No, it must be the latter surely?

Maybe Salmond planned this all along. He gets DevoMax on a plate. Nae bother.

He doesn't actually WANT an iScotland and is now crapping himself at the business reaction.

"Aw shit, I didn't think the daft buggers would actually vote for it"

I am voting no. I don't argue against the idea of a better represented government. I argue that the numbers don't add up and the effects could last far beyond the initial rush of excitement if it's a yes. I think a lot of well informed yes voters know this and are happy to take that risk. I also think a lot of less informed yes voters don't have a clue that this could in the short term negatively impact them and what results is ever greater disenfranchisement.

I do also wonder if we use a PR system (my ignorance I don't actually know what the system will be in 2016 - I assume Lady CL that this is known) whether we will end up with a very varied parliament where there is such a range of competing interest that things move very slow...who knows? Not a risk I want to take thanks

Is it possible to engage in this thread without being shouted down?

Genuine question It looks like anyone who tries to discuss their motivations for voting yes, is met with scathing ridicule and rudeness, yet you get pissed off when someone else comes in at the same level of tone that you're using. There are posters further back in the thread who are really respectful of you and they get hounded out of here.

Is this a place for discussion?

I have some questions, but don't want to be spoken to this way.

I think there is some on both sides issy. Ask away there are some very level headed people on this thread on both sides

Genuine question It looks like anyone who tries to discuss their motivations for voting yes, is met with scathing ridicule and rudeness, yet you get pissed off when someone else comes in at the same level of tone that you're using.

The same goes in reverse. There are some pretty nasty comments the other way round too towards those voting no.