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Indyref8

999 replies

grovel · 09/09/2014 17:36

ItsAllGoingToBeFine, but who will be Prime Minister? Pretty unsatisfactory changing halfway through. My suggestion was that maybe Cameron, Clegg, Miliband et al agree on a team and step back themselves. It would make the end result a joint enterprise and could prevent years of feuding in rUK.

OP posts:
starwarslegoboy · 10/09/2014 12:14

Earth
Some of it will happen, certainly not all. - Then there will be GE in Scotland and we will elect the government who will implement their policies to move forward. It will not be plain sailing, certainly, but it will be democracy

Raintown
It is not DevoMax on offer and even it it was, there is no way that it's going to become a reality. "They" DID renege of heir promises in 1979. It is not ludicrous, it's politics. And what 5 million of us think versus against the 60+million iwill most certainly be politics at the UK General Election

weatherall · 10/09/2014 12:14

Grand theft- we are voting for democracy.

This is the first time in many people's lives that they have a vote that can actually change the system, not just tinker round the edges.

The reason all the WM parties sound the same is because so much of the work of government is dove by Whitehall mandarins. They don't change. Governments and parties come and go but it's still the same old boys club (there has never been a female cabinet secretary) running ruining our lives.

Roseformeplease · 10/09/2014 12:15

So, no apology then, weatherall.

It is almost like AS himself is on the thread. Weird. Attacks, hectors and then, when proved wrong, just moves on to the next attack.

squoosh · 10/09/2014 12:15

Apparently Kay Burley in George Square. I can't see anything going wrong there. Nope.

AnnieHoo · 10/09/2014 12:16

I see Standard Life have announced they're moving the business to England if it's a Yes vote. That's a huge amount of job losses in Edinburgh and Lothians. Hmm

weatherall · 10/09/2014 12:16

Earth- look at the approval ratings for the different leaders. You will find that AS is the most trusted.

Raintown · 10/09/2014 12:16

Weatherall You can't compare the two - completely different circumstances.

You're right to be cynical about politicians and I certainly wouldn't trust anything AS says, given his track record.

However, the (exceptionally unlikely) consequences of not delivering on further devolution would be another majority SNP government, another referendum and an overwhelming yes vote, so as I say, it wouldn't happen.

weatherall · 10/09/2014 12:17

Standard life said that before the devolution referendum in 1997. They are still here.

Why should we believe them now when they lied then?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 10/09/2014 12:17

Voting yes just do Scotland can govern itself with no indication of how this would be seems very wishy washy to me

Self-governance is not "wishy washy" There are two blueprints I can think of off the top of my head, the White Paper, and the Common Weal. What Scotland will become and how it will get there, is very much dependent on the outcome of the negotiations, and on the will of the Scottish people. Self-governance is the really important bit.

Devo Max is a reality. All 3 parties, both the National & Scottish leaderships, have publicly pledged this, so its ludicrous to suggest they would renege after a 'No' vote - no one wants to go through all this again!

Of course they will renege. They are making desperate vague promises with NO guarantee they will be kept. Even if Scots wanted devo Max there are not enough of them to have any impact on the vote. To stop another referendum all WM needs to do is refuse to allow one, or in the worst case dissolve the Scottish Parliament.

weatherall · 10/09/2014 12:18

Rain town Westminster could refuse to give us another referendum. They are under no legal obligation to allow one or to agree with the result.

In theory they could pass an act of parliament and dissolve the Scottish parliament.

IrnBruTheNoo · 10/09/2014 12:20

"The UK is the 4th most unequal country in the world. Read the spirit level to see how this is damaging for everyone."

Is this you referring to politicians wanting a 10% pay rise when there are people in Scotland struggling to make ends meet? That kind of unequal? Shocking isn't it?

weatherall · 10/09/2014 12:22

I see all the no campaigners have ignored my questions on inequality.

Hmm
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 10/09/2014 12:23

I see Standard Life have announced they're moving the business to England if it's a Yes vote.

No. They didn't.
www.standardlife.com/utility/customer_statement-2.html

"In view of the uncertainty around Scotland's constitutional future, we have put in place precautionary measures which would help enable us to provide customers with continuity. This includes planning for new regulated companies in England to which we could transfer parts of our business "if there was a need* to do so." (My emphasis)

All big companies have contingency planning, its a basic part of management its a shame WM hasn't bothered

weatherall · 10/09/2014 12:24

Not just the WM politicians.

CEOs earn spectacularly more than they did in the 90s.

Bankers bonuses have returned to pre crash levels.

Yet we now have food banks in every neighbourhood.

Roseformeplease · 10/09/2014 12:24

Weatherall - below is what you posted:

"There's been a lot of talk on these threads about how supposedly interest rates will 'skyrocket'in an independent Scotland.

So for the first time I went over to the better together website to see what the official campaign has to say on this issue.

Whats more the National Institute of Economic and Social Research estimate that an independent Scotland would face additional interest rate costs of between 0.72% to 1.65% above the UK borrowing costs

ie - above the UK borrowing costs. So 2% plus somewhere between 0.72 and 1.65%. That is a huge amount to the average mortgage payer. I don't know about you, but I don't have that kind of money, doubt my house will sell when everyone else is also going to be trying to sell theirs, and I would be in negative equity.

Roseformeplease · 10/09/2014 12:25

"every neighbourhood" weatherall? No food banks here, and none required, yet we are considered an economically deprived part of the country.

EarthWindFire · 10/09/2014 12:25

No one believes WM politicians anymore.

So you can speak for everyone now.

Can I speak for everyone too and say many people don't believe AS either.

Phaedra- yes Scottish people care more about dead children that moot technicalities.

Way below the belt and uncalled for! Certainly not only Scittish people care about dead children! What a ridiculous statement to make!

Roseformeplease · 10/09/2014 12:26

Happy to answer your questions on inequality, weatherall, when you answer mine about interest rates.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 10/09/2014 12:28

rose That surprises me about food banks - I'm guessing you must be rural?

weatherall · 10/09/2014 12:28

"James Laxer is a professor of political science at York University. He has written widely on the subject of nationalism, Quebec nationalism in particular. His latest publication is: London: In a Time of Billionaires, Scottish Separatism, UKIP and anti-immigrant rage.)

When the Scots vote in their historic independence referendum next Thursday, Canadians, especially the Québécois, will be watching closely. Having held two sovereignty referenda, the Québécois may feel that they are the masters in such enterprises and that the Scots are their apprentices. In 1980, the Québécois voted No to sovereignty by a 60-40 margin, and in 1995, the No side prevailed by a mere one percentage point of the votes cast.

In fact, the Scots are not replicating the earlier exercises in Quebec. Dressed in national garb, the people of Scotland are voting in the world’s first referendum on economic and political inequality.

Many Scots, indeed millions of people in other parts of the United Kingdom, would insist that the telescope ought to be turned around. It is London, they would argue, that effectively seceded from the U.K. during the Thatcher Revolution of the 1980s, leaving the rest of the country de-industrialized. Employment in shipbuilding, steel and other basic manufacturing sectors was decimated in Scotland during the Thatcher years. Once “the workshop of the world”, Britain has become an enormous net importer of manufactured goods, leaving the financial sector to keep the country solvent.

Effectively, London is now a City State, whose wealthier residents often have very little to do with the rest of Britain. They work in the City, educate their children in London and the Home Counties, and play in the south of England or abroad. When I spent a month there in the spring, Londoners to whom I spoke wrote off the Scottish referendum with a yawn. “Most of my friends don’t give a toss,” one man who works in the City told me. The Scots ought to consider themselves fortunate to be linked to the great economic engine of London, according to many who dwell in the metropolis.

In his global mega bestseller, Capital in the Twenty-First Century, French economist Thomas Piketty traced the takeoff of the super-managers in Britain over the past two decades. These individuals, the top one-tenth of 1 per cent of income earners, take home about 16 per cent of the national income. There are 50,000 such people in the U.K. and they are heavily concentrated in London.

The influence of the super-managers, their families, and their associates on Westminster politics is enormous. This is true, not only in the present Conservative-Lib Dem governing coalition, but in the Labour Party as well. In Scotland, where the Conservatives have shrunk to the status of a fringe party, it is widely believed that when Tony Blair and Gordon Brown led a Labour government from 1997 to 2010, the essentials of the Thatcher approach to the British economy, privileging finance and the City, remained in place.

Scotland’s First Minister Alex Salmond has asserted that Scottish independence would address the “damage caused by the vast social disparities which have seen the U.K. become one of the most unequal societies in the developed world.”

The Scottish government’s White Paper, Scotland’s Future, published last autumn, presented a vision of a progressive country, similar in many ways to the Scandinavian countries. Among the policies it would advocate if elected as the government of an independent Scotland, the SNP pledges 30 hours of childcare a week during school terms for three and four-year-olds, as well as for vulnerable two-year-olds.

The Yes side aims to open Scotland to the wider world, ironically at the same time as England is considering whether to withdraw from the European Union and English politicians are competing to prove that they are more hostile to further immigration than their opponents.

With recent polls showing the Yes side taking a narrow lead, Scottish referendum day will be marked on calendars in many parts of the world, including Canada. Far beyond Scotland, people will be watching the Scots challenge how decisions are made about who wins and who loses in today’s socio-economic order."

Text from [[James Laxer is a professor of political science at York University. He has written widely on the subject of nationalism, Quebec nationalism in particular. His latest publication is: London: In a Time of Billionaires, Scottish Separatism, UKIP and anti-immigrant rage.)

When the Scots vote in their historic independence referendum next Thursday, Canadians, especially the Québécois, will be watching closely. Having held two sovereignty referenda, the Québécois may feel that they are the masters in such enterprises and that the Scots are their apprentices. In 1980, the Québécois voted No to sovereignty by a 60-40 margin, and in 1995, the No side prevailed by a mere one percentage point of the votes cast.

In fact, the Scots are not replicating the earlier exercises in Quebec. Dressed in national garb, the people of Scotland are voting in the world’s first referendum on economic and political inequality.

Many Scots, indeed millions of people in other parts of the United Kingdom, would insist that the telescope ought to be turned around. It is London, they would argue, that effectively seceded from the U.K. during the Thatcher Revolution of the 1980s, leaving the rest of the country de-industrialized. Employment in shipbuilding, steel and other basic manufacturing sectors was decimated in Scotland during the Thatcher years. Once “the workshop of the world”, Britain has become an enormous net importer of manufactured goods, leaving the financial sector to keep the country solvent.

Effectively, London is now a City State, whose wealthier residents often have very little to do with the rest of Britain. They work in the City, educate their children in London and the Home Counties, and play in the south of England or abroad. When I spent a month there in the spring, Londoners to whom I spoke wrote off the Scottish referendum with a yawn. “Most of my friends don’t give a toss,” one man who works in the City told me. The Scots ought to consider themselves fortunate to be linked to the great economic engine of London, according to many who dwell in the metropolis.

In his global mega bestseller, Capital in the Twenty-First Century, French economist Thomas Piketty traced the takeoff of the super-managers in Britain over the past two decades. These individuals, the top one-tenth of 1 per cent of income earners, take home about 16 per cent of the national income. There are 50,000 such people in the U.K. and they are heavily concentrated in London.

The influence of the super-managers, their families, and their associates on Westminster politics is enormous. This is true, not only in the present Conservative-Lib Dem governing coalition, but in the Labour Party as well. In Scotland, where the Conservatives have shrunk to the status of a fringe party, it is widely believed that when Tony Blair and Gordon Brown led a Labour government from 1997 to 2010, the essentials of the Thatcher approach to the British economy, privileging finance and the City, remained in place.

Scotland’s First Minister Alex Salmond has asserted that Scottish independence would address the “damage caused by the vast social disparities which have seen the U.K. become one of the most unequal societies in the developed world.”
Text from m.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/scottish-referendum-the-worlds-first-vote-on-economic-inequality/article20489038/?service=mobile

IrnBruTheNoo · 10/09/2014 12:29

So why didn't WM have contingency plans two years ago, or even longer in case Scotland votes Yes for independence then? Can I get an answer for that? No one has bothered to answer this one, and I've already asked this several pages ago now.

I'd love to know. Why come out with Devo Max (not a guarantee, just a possibility) now? Why just now, and not years ago????

EarthWindFire · 10/09/2014 12:29

people in Scotland struggling to make ends meet? That kind of unequal? Shocking isn't it?

Please don't tell me you only think that Scottish people are suffering.

grandtheftmanual · 10/09/2014 12:30

Weatherall - it's probably because you seem to see independence as a panacea for all ills. There are rich and poor people in pretty much every country in the world (with maybe the possible exception of Brunei Grin). Even Scandinavia has it's fair share of poor people. Scottish independence will not wipe out the poor. Well - not in the way you're hoping anyway.

BardarbungaBardarbing · 10/09/2014 12:30

I spoke about inequality (it feels like) weeks ago many no voters are left-leaning - just more cynical and taking a longer view about the nationalists.

IrnBruTheNoo · 10/09/2014 12:30

"No food banks here, and none required, yet we are considered an economically deprived part of the country."

Good for you. Where I was brought up and where I live now (two separate regions of Scotland) there are several food banks popping up all the time.