Indyref8

[grovel]

ItsAllGoingToBeFine, but who will be Prime Minister? Pretty unsatisfactory changing halfway through. My suggestion was that maybe Cameron, Clegg, Miliband et al agree on a team and step back themselves. It would make the end result a joint enterprise and could prevent years of feuding in rUK.

Issydee even if we had no debt we'd still be running a deficit I'm pretty sure. I can't dig out figures just now but isn't the estimated annual repayment if Scotland took a share around 4bn? According to the gers figures over the last 5 years Scotland has spent on average 10.x billion more than our revenues.

Re David Cameron. Tbh, that man can't do anything right for some people. If he was on the street it would be squeals of 'toxic Tory posh boy', what does he know about real people, etc etc...
Making personal attacks on party leaders should be avoided IMHO it adds nothing to sensible debate and it says more about those making the comments than the target of the comments.

but now, finally, WM has woken up and realised their cock-up (a full fledged, gold-standard, copper-bottomed cock-up) and I believe that they would have to stick by their word and renegotiate the relationship between Scotland and rUK, ie DevoMax or whatever you want to call it.

Stat- yes I think as acknowledged 2 nights ago that Scotland's deficit would be a sustainable under 3%.

Personally I'd like to see it lower but it's not high compared to other countries.

sorry for multiple x-posts, this is my brain-dump for this morning

All three leaders have been so public about this that to pull out on it would be political suicide

But it wouldn't. A large number of the rUK think Scotland already scrounges too much, and would see DM as a concession, the rest don't care. The only people who would vote about it, would be the Scots, and as we have established, their votes have no impact on WM.

Its not the 'no' campaign that's making me scared, its the 'yes' campaign - their intimidation and lack of definite answers.

Plus all the facts tell me we'd be much worse off. I have friends/family who will lose jobs, my husband might lose his, there's rumours my company will be merged into another.

Shame this debate ends at 2.45 as I'll miss the end due to school run, plus many others will be at work (I'm off this week)

I wish you were right Statistically, but I think especially now that the eyes of the rUK have been opened to what has been going on in Scotland, that if it is a No, they will skelp our cheeky arses and and take some of our Parliamentary toys away.

The arrogance from WM has been extraordinary. DevoMax was not offered as they were so confident of a No. They have forced the position we are now in. I am not naturally a Nationalist, and I would have voted for DevoMax but I can't see any other way forward than voting Yes. In fact, I'm quite terrified of the fallout after a No vote now.

TBH I still think No will probably win, although I certainly would not bet on it, but I am going to vote Yes as the vote needs to be a tight as possible.

Well said WildThong

It seems that AS can do no wrong and everyone else can do no right. Dammed if you do damned if you don't.

Here's what I posted this morning...
'Ok, thanks, I'll continue in the hope that it's possible that there can be difference of opinion or sharing of perspectives without shutting down the conversation:

I get that it's easier from an administrative standpoint to continue with the institutions as we have them, so there's some dispute about the extent to which it would be an additional expense in an independent Scotland to set up/transfer existing institutions... however, what I'm wondering is that even the most risk averse of us must be a little bit scared about what happens if we don't rethink how the UK does business.

I'm struggling to see how we can continue to exist in a global market, where other countries can offer cheaper labour. Won't the long term impact of that be that jobs get fewer and fewer and pay less and less, unless something is done to develop domestic production and consumption so that we have less reliance on imports, at the same time as investing to develop better UK exports. It seems to me that most of foreign 'investment' is in the form of asset stripping, INEOS for example are running a massive profit but are cutting jobs and wages.

I'm not a macroeconomist so would appreciate input from those who are. I know the IMF are now saying that austerity doesn't work, yet all the parties are signed up to austerity except the Greens and the SNP. We know that the entirety of the UK growth is down to the London property market, and asset bubbles burst... so it appears that our economic policy favours investment in the form of speculation, instead of investment in the form of industrial development. We are very firmly headed in a direction of travel that is going to increase the reliance of the entire economy on the banking sector. Banking sector crashes come in 9 year cycles, so we've probably got about 5 years to reform the system so that we don't have a rerun (or worse?) of the 1998 crash. But I don't see any plans from the UK government to do this (are there plans that I've missed?)

Why isn't there a will to reform this now?
Who benefits from not reforming?

Wouldn't there be massive income gains for the UK if we also reformed the tax system? Progressive taxation on sales as opposed to corporation tax would ensure that companies like Amazon would be paying into the UK economy - money that could be invested in infrastructure which would then stimulate innovation and encourage competitiveness and quality of exports. On a global platform, the UK isn't competitive as a labour market, but we are valuable as a consumer market - so what is standing in the way of reforming taxation so that the UK gains from the fact that global corps want to sell here.

Argh... sorry if questions are a little all over the place, trying to type with a small person rubbing marmite hands all over my head... Not ideal for forming coherent thoughts'

weatherall, the figures YOU cite suggest that those numbers would be the amount ABOVE the UK rate so, say 2% plus x%.

Surely, as an economics graduate, you understand what you quoted?

Plus all the facts tell me we'd be much worse off. I have friends/family who will lose jobs, my husband might lose his, there's rumours my company will be merged into another.

Very true. I also know people in this position. It is a big problem which seems to be conveniently firgotten about.

Statistically I realise that figures can be used to prove almost anything, but if it's true that Scotland's overspend costs us roughly 10 billion a year and the debt Salmond refuses to pay is about 4 billion a year, I imagine that some would say it's fairly simple ...

Let them refuse repayment (with all the consequences from financial markets) keep the 6 billion balance and leave them to get on with it

As I've said before, the Scots - while fully entitled to look out for themselves - aren't the only people who might want to do so

That's the kind of lie people in Scotland care about.

As opposed to a lie in Parliament by the First Minister with the deliberate aim of misleading Parliament and the public about EU membership.

ItsAll I still maintain that the WM leaders will do everything in their power to avoid another referendum come a No vote. So they will have to address the issues that so many Yes voters have, start to really listen.

Oh issy Those questions about macroeconomics are too big for me to answer. I'm just an ordinary bugger!

Puzzled I understand why you might feel that way. I want to stay in a union and for me it's not just about the money. Could someone kind please paste over my positive no response from yesterday as I think most of my responses apply equally well to the English side of the argument as the Scottish one.

WildThong - why are you reposting the same thing?

someone said devo max is 'false promises'

well I don't believe Salmond's promises will happen either

The difference being we wont be able to do anything to reverse independence

Issydee I will respond to your macroeconomic questions later if that's Ok...not ignoring just more than I can answer properly just now

According to this the UK has a deficit of 5.8%.

Not a resounding story of success.

I believe the smaller economy will be more efficient and this will be able to run a smaller deficit working towards a surplus to reduce our national debt.

The best way to lower our debt interest payments is to lower our debts.

issy this is also what you also said this morning ,

"Is it possible to engage in this thread without being shouted down?

Genuine question It looks like anyone who tries to discuss their motivations for voting yes, is met with scathing ridicule and rudeness, yet you get pissed off when someone else comes in at the same level of tone that you're using. There are posters further back in the thread who are really respectful of you and they get hounded out of here.

Is this a place for discussion?

I have some questions, but don't want to be spoken to this way."

Welcome to mumsnet btw

Who was hounded please?
Spoken to in what way?
Now you have made several thoughtful posts which have been welcomed by some and argued with by others - I hope you feel you can take back the generalisation and comments re "scathing ridicule and rudeness"

Sorry,
I would hate this forum to descend into the nastiness seen in other places, that's why I can't let stuff like this go by unchallenged.

What promises don't you believe frankie?

ItsAll I still maintain that the WM leaders will do everything in their power to avoid another referendum come a No vote.

I would imagine they would do that by refusing another referendum, rather than by devolving power.

I believe that they would have to stick by their word and renegotiate the relationship between Scotland and rUK, ie DevoMax or whatever you want to call it

That may or may not be true, but what if renogotiation brings an outcome which suits Scots even less than the current arrangements?

Among all the noise and fury, too many forget that it's not only the Scots' views which count