IndyRef 7

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

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Choccaluvva That's more like it! although I thought lists were being frowned upon-

You can turn all the reasons against voting 'yes' into positives - e.g. economic risks looked at another way are economic benefits of staying in the union.

Risks of being out of the EU = benefits of staying in the union for EU membership (although the Tories and UKIP are scuppering that one...)

etc. etc. etc.

If Ithought Scotland, using my professional judgement and all my personal skills and abilities that have led me to achieve a reasonable lifestyle, was likely to be a far more successful country in my lifetime and lead me to a happier and more prosperous life, of course I would be voting Yes. For me, its not an emotive issue based on nationalism and culture - I'm not 100% Scottish anyway so I find it difficult to empathise with the really strong nationalistic sentiment.

Beautifully put Chelsy and exactly why I am voting yes (I am probably 0% Scottish by your definition)

The security that exists by staying within the UK as a larger body.

UK forces were out and about (apparently!) during the Commonwealth Games for example. Extra police were drafted in from Northern England and the Midlands. A bigger federation of nations gives us more resources when needed.

so to a large extent we already are governed by people who live here

I would say to a small extwnt. There are massive areas we have no control over. We have achieved a lot with devolution though.

I think the point about a distinct Scottish identity is significant because those of us with Scottish parents and an extended Scottish family, but born in England feel that identity too. We've been brought up with the vernacular, the shared experience and an attachment to certain Scottish localities. It's in our DNA. One of the difficulties of this referendum and the possibility of a Yes vote is feeling that we could be cut loose from all that but without any input. Suddenly, my family could all become foreigners, if that doesn't sound a wee bit too dramatic, and, as the years progress, the feeling of separation will become more acutre. I noticed quite a few journalists make similar comments in various newspapers yesterday.

I haven't "frowned" on lists. Provided they aren't described as facts if they aren't facts...... naughty.

The frustration of the no side is that we think that the yes voters who believe that Scotland will be more prosperous are mistaken.

My frustration is that I don't feel sufficiently Scottish to want self-determination, even if I did I wouldn't want to dismantle the union as it will adversely affect the rUK IMO, and I think an independent Scotland will be an economic disaster. (and I'm criticised for the only time I carelessly put out an incorrect fact; a detail that didn't affect the point I was making - a point that nobody on the yes vote has managed to counter argue)

For me, just a few of the positive reasons:

I feel like we are, after so long, a fundamental part of Britain. When I was out yesterday we got chatting to two guys from northern England who were merrily ranting about the Tories , but were really pleased that we were voting no because they see us as being so like them. They were almost hurt at the idea we wouldn't want to stand with them anymore.

I value the strength and stability that a more diverse economy brings. We benefit from fiscal transfers

I value our recent history as a shared entity more than our ancient history of division.

I am proud of what Scotland has achieved as a part of Britain. Of course there are parts of our history which I would prefer had not happened but independence won't absolve us of responsibility for those. Yes we could have done some of it alone, but I believe we achieve more as a team.

I don't believe in tearing the world in to ever smaller pieces based on small differences. I value the unions and relationships we have with other countries. For all it's flaws, I value the EU and the stability that those close relationships have created in Europe (again, I know it is not perfect but in comparison to the scale of wars we used to see in Europe...). But I value the union with my closest neighbours the most.

Cheesy as it is, watching the Olympics I realised that I did not see the competitors from England/Wales/Northern Ireland as not being my countrymen. I cheered as loudly for Jessica Innes as for Chris Hoy

I believe that we have a good balance in terms of political representation - we're better than many other parts of Britain in that we have control for the most important local issues here whilst still retaining the strength of the union. I like that. I don't feel under-represented at all. I'd like to see other parts of the UK get what we have and I think that is probably a likely outcome

I want to work for better social justice - and I believe this can be better achieved through additional devolution, innovative thinking and making better use of the powers we do have than through the significant upheaval of creating an entirely independent state. And my concern for social justice does not stop at the border. I want improvements for everyone in the UK.

I believe that this referendum will stimulate huge constitutional debate all over the UK, That's a good thing. But I also believe that we can achieve far more together than we can apart.

You have my permission to vomit

Bye celtic sorry you find the pleasantness unbearable.

Nope I feel the same Stat'ly

Itsall I agree. There have been excellent, knowledgeable posts. However, they are all pointing out the "bad" things that will happen if Scotland leaves, that is not positive.

You don't like points made even if they are valid because they don't adopt the right "tone"? Seriously? You will never move beyond a position of bias then. Your thinking and personal ideology doesn't permit it.

Can I ask you if you have ever lived outside Scotland? Not just on holiday, but for a reasonable time?

Probably a different thread Statistically but I have been listening and reading opinion in the North of England and there is hurt at this turn of events and yesterday's rush of the parties to promise more for Scotland is being looked at rather like this :.

And you think a stock market crash won't affect Scotland weatherall? Please explain!

Husband and I were talking about this last night and wondered if any yesser would be dim enough to think because they don't hold shares they don't care.

Weatherall you do realise virtually all pensions , even public sector ones are invested in the stock market? .

You can't construct an independent country from a vacuum (obviously - don't mean to state the obvious) It can't happen without dismantling the UK. Unless you can make a case for an independent Scotland benefitting the UK it's not a positive thing to do.

Should Scotland be an independent country? No = negative
Yes = positive

Should Scotland remain in the UK? No = negative
Yes = positive

Should Scotland leave the UK? No = negative
Yes = positive

I'm really fed up of being called negative.

IrnBru was stating as fact that I had said I disliked living here and had nothing good to say about Scotland. Completely untrue.

This has been extrapolated solely on the basis of my not believing independence will be good for Scotland.

It is very tiresome that any comment questioning there will not be a land of milk and honey is taken to mean one is doing Scotland down. Don't you get it? We like it here- we don't want it trashed.

Let's do what's best for the UK.

Positivity in a nutshell.

Happy now?

I was going to post re being positive for No, all well covered above, thank you. I like being British.

weatherall - in response to your post of 11:37 today:

I have DCs, both now old enough to vote themselves. One has already benefitted from studying abroad at no cost, which was possible only because we (Scotland) are part of the EU. DC2 is unlikely to take up that option but I would like to see it remain available to all who want it: it broadens the mind. Voting No, to stay in the UK and - for the moment at least! - in the EU, will preserve that opportunity.

We used to pay for a private nursery so that DH and I could both work full time, and I can't begin to understand where the money will come from to provide free childcare for the number of children the Yes campaign promises. But it makes a good carrot to dangle!

My DC, your DC, and everyone else's DCs will have to work in the future to pay for our healthcare, our 'free' prescriptions, 'free' eye tests', 'free' bus passes, 'free' personal care, old age pensions and much more. They will be able to do this only if they are paying taxes; which generally means they will need jobs, and moderately well-paid jobs at that. Who can predict the level of taxes required to fund everything? I don't want my DCs or yours crippled by high tax rates (Scandinavia, anyone?) to pay for me.

Yes, everything can be flipped from positive to negative. Eg, Celtic and IrnBru saying the No posters are helping independence.

With every post I read from Weatherall and Celtic I become more and more convinced that we should vote No.

Celtic your , weatherall and IrnBru's remarks to me did a sterling job of convincing me to vote no.

I particularly liked the suggestion by one of you that I had no interest or liking for Scotland so should not bother voting.

chelsy
"I don't look quite Scottish but I look Scottish enough to not look obviously non-Scot,"

Now you are defining Scottishness by appearance?

And yet the no campaigners accuse yes voters as being racist?

Actually, I think chelsy was trying to give some context to her personal experience weatherall
You need to read the full post before jumping down people's throats.