IndyRef 7

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

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Well I'll have to disagree, point scoring is not on my list of things I do in life.

You ought to look to your own behaviour yesterday in belittling those with anxieties about independence. That was mean imo.

IrnBru Yes I agree with you Celtic, every time one of the No posters speaks out in negative terms about Better Togetherness, they just reinforce why many want to vote Yes all over again...

That's right IrnBru. No-one should talk at all, if they don't vote Yes. Or they must only talk in strict parameters set down by Yes supporters.

Again, why is Scotland producing so many intolerant people?

I do hope i have been one of the exceptions .

I try and be straight forward and fair, and in much earlier threads sticking to the very straight points on currency, and monetary finance - which is my speciality. But i do hear genuine questions and concerns constantly belittled as negative or wrong. And i fear that a lot of people have made up their minds based on some very poor information and that rather than listen and engage with the discussion make it an attack on me or other no voters' integrity.

I love my country and genuinely and honestly feel that many, many yes voters have been hoodwinked into something by a group with central core of rather nasty people with an ideology of hatred.

I want a country - united, strong, with Jobs for my children, with freedom of movement and with a place in the world - a country we can be proud to live in and sit in a moderate amount of harmony with our neighbours.

this referendum has given a lot people the implied right to say a lot of nasty things and my country will be the poorer for it. Both at home and overseas.

Weatherall We could distribute reduced earnings more fairly. I think we would be shielded from the type of austerity policies WM has followed during this recession.

Why would people bother doing more difficult, stressful jobs if their earnings are to be "redistributed"? Whats the point?

Statly has presented more facts and comment from well-informed experts arguably than almost everyone else on these indy-ref threads.

So if the worst happens, and Scotland turns into an (even more) intolerant disaster zone, which are the best countries to move to?

England or Wales (obvious choices, not language difficulties)
Abroad, wheres best? Germany? Belgium? The Netherlands? Any big reasons for avoiding one of those? Anywhere else?

celtic good! glad to help

If we had people like Statistically and some other excellent posters on here working in Scottish Government, there might actually be a chance of a decent country. But I'm guessing that they don't, nor do they want to. Or if they did, they would be brushed over like the legal expert witness at the Scottish Parliamentary Committee, while the bully type bluster boys were promoted.

Ok. Negativity. Those of us who are voting no believe there are considerable risks and downsides to independence. Would you like us to not discuss them? Pretend they don't exist? Is considering only the positives a good basis for decision making? No, it is not.

Just because we don't skip along singing "always look on the bright side" doesn't mean our input is not legitimate. I've certainly acknowledged some of the potential positives of independence but for me those are outweighed by the downsides.

Despairing at all the guff yesterday about falling share prices and currency translated as 'ooh independence would be negative for Scotland - look at the currency and shares' instead of recognition that what it reflects is the uncertainty of the situation. Prices always fall on uncertainty. It does not necessarily reflect negativity although I recognise that in many cases of specific companies, it does reflect concern regarding increased tax.

Aww thank you Wildthong/Choccoluvva/Chelsyhandy/itsall/bardarbing

I think my big issue (sorry if it's patronising) is that I am finding a lot of people don't know the facts. Both campaigns aren't great at getting them across, they get stretched and twisted almost beyond recognition. So I try to be as fair as I can and get them out there. Some folk don't like that - fair enough. Some people aren't bothered because for them independence is a more fundamental decision - fair enough. But there are a lot of people who are making decisions based on false and flawed information.

I said the same yesterday Madasabox - I think it's probably overthinking to represent it as much more than market jitters.

Ok. Negativity. Those of us who are voting no believe there are considerable risks and downsides to independence. Would you like us to not discuss them? Pretend they don't exist?

Of course not. Your posts in particular have been very helpful. However, it would be very refreshing to see some positive reason to vote no, why we should want to stay in the UK, reasons apart from if we don't stay Scotland will go into economic meltdown/turn into communist dictarship/be entirely depopulated/be invaded by the Russians.

I can see why it would be frustrating to be a yes voter who wants self-determination because of a strong feeling of having a distinct Scottish identity and is prepared to accept the economic risks to get independence. It must be frustrating to think that there are voters who agree about the principle of self-determination in the case of UK but will vote no because they think the economic risk is too great.

But they will probably have the opportunity to have another referendum in the future when the economic situation might be better.

But voters who wish to stay in the UK won't get the option of rejoining the UK in the event of a yes vote.

Well,I'll leave you to your love in guys. I have enjoyed reading these threads on the whole they been very informative. Time to leave it now as it's become little more than a mutual appreciation society for some posters.
May the best side win on the day, and all that, and whatever the vote i 'll still be coming up to Edinburgh for the festival next year [ smile]

Itsall For me a No vote would mean the security and strength of being part of one of the major economies of the world.

I see that as a positive force.

Itsall However, it would be very refreshing to see some positive reason to vote no, why we should want to stay in the UK, reasons apart from if we don't stay Scotland will go into economic meltdown/turn into communist dictarship/be entirely depopulated/be invaded by the Russians

If you are seriously claiming that in seven threads on this, and numerous excellent posts in particular on the legal and economic issues, you have missed this, you are almost certainly not taking in viewpoints from either side. That would be your issue, not the issue of those who have posted.

In other words, I suspect you are blinded to the other side's viewpoints because you are coming at it from a strong position of bias.

You would argue I am doing the same. I would disagree - if I thought Scotland, using my professional judgement and all my personal skills and abilities that have led me to achieve a reasonable lifestyle, was likely to be a far more successful country in my lifetime and lead me to a happier and more prosperous life, of course I would be voting Yes. For me, its not an emotive issue based on nationalism and culture - I'm not 100% Scottish anyway so I find it difficult to empathise with the really strong nationalistic sentiment.

Itsall, by the same token, it would be interesting to see some positive reasons to vote yes.

Scotland governed by those who live there. A positive reason. The positive reason, and something that is genuinely guaranteed with a Yes vote.

Positive reasons to stay in the UK:

working with everyone in UK to improve the lot of those whose lot needs improving in the UK

enjoying the geographical practicalities of a shared island

feeling good about ourselves for making the responsible decision to continue on as part of a team through the tough times as well as the good times

sharing our resources across the land

continuing to build on the achievements of the UK

If you are seriously claiming that in seven threads on this, and numerous excellent posts in particular on the legal and economic issues, you have missed this, you are almost certainly not taking in viewpoints from either side

I agree. There have been excellent, knowledgeable posts. However, they are all pointing out the "bad" things that will happen if Scotland leaves, that is not positive.

..and what Chelsy said .

There are reels of economic, social, legal and cultural positives for a No vote within these threads.